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Wide rear tire vs slim?

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1 hour ago, willc86 said:

Would you guys say a fat tire works better in technical/rocky/gravely trails?

Stock sizes on my CRF250X are 80/100-21 and 100/100-18

I ride similar trail conditions mixed in with stretches of gravel connecting roads.

 

A while back I upsized both front and rear to a 90/100-21 and 110/100-18.

The only benefit I saw was better square edged hit absorption in rocks,

otherwise the added weight, width and inertia pretty much negatively affected the handling.

The bike didn't want to corner and lean over as easily (at slow and fast pace), wouldn't keep the desire line when side hilling etc.

 

I didn't even wait for that set of tires to be worn and switched back to the standard sizes,

better handling in general is more important to me than the minor improvements in rocks and traction.

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If you are adjusting tire sizes, I would recommend adjusting your forks up/down in the clamps to help retain the stock (or a favorable) geometry. Especially when running the fatty fronts. 

Edited by intimdatr
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2 hours ago, joey330 said:

Actually tires do have a damping effect.

For instance an 18" vs a 19"... More sidewall = more what? Thank you.

Wider tires cover more surface are as well, meaning that instead of pinging off rocks you can roll over Rocks.

Guess I'll let you research the "damping effect" as that was the only thing you argued.

No, tires do not have effective dampening, unless you run them flat.  There is a reason your shock has oil in it, because springs don't dampen; they release their energy faster than they store it.  Your tire in essence is acting as an un-dampened spring.

Your "Wider tires cover more surface" statement is a contradiction in terms.  

You are the one in need of research. 

Quote

Damping (dampening) is an influence within or upon an oscillatory system that has the effect of reducing, restricting or preventing its oscillations. In physical systems, damping is produced by processes that dissipate the energy stored in the oscillation.

Tires don't dampen, they release the energy from being compressed in an uncontrolled manner resulting in deflection.  Wider tires have more room for compression, store more energy, which is released in an uncontrolled manner.  

Edited by crypto666

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Tires don't dampen, they release the energy from being compressed in an uncontrolled manner resulting in deflection.  Wider tires have more room for compression, store more energy, which is released in an uncontrolled manner.  
Maybe you hit your head a lot harder than you think when you wrecked.
Not going to sit here and argue with you about tires.

I run 5psi in rear and 8 front, I also win races with big tires, have more control with big tires, less deflection with them, and to continue sticking to my statement, more sidewall, the better.
Good day.
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37 minutes ago, joey330 said:

Maybe you hit your head a lot harder than you think when you wrecked.
Not going to sit here and argue with you about tires.

I run 5psi in rear and 8 front, I also win races with big tires, have more control with big tires, less deflection with them, and to continue sticking to my statement, more sidewall, the better.
Good day.

Maybe you aren't as think as you smart you are?

I don't like sitting and arguing either, so I generally stand up when doing so.  It makes it much easier to throw the cat across the room while I stomp and spit over something I found on the internet.

I run 0 psi and win races, so that makes me a much bigger badass than yourself. 

When you make the podium on your tw200 and it's ultra large sidewalls post a picture.  More is better always

Hopefully you at least learned the definition and concept of damping or dampening.

Edited by crypto666
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Maybe you aren't as think as you smart you are?
I don't like sitting and arguing either, so I generally stand up when doing so.  It makes it much easier to throw the cat across the room while I stomp and spit over something I found on the internet.
I run 0 psi and win races, so that makes me a much bigger badass than yourself. 
When you make the podium on your tw200 and it's ultra large sidewalls post a picture.  More is better always
Hopefully you at least learned the definition and concept of damping or dampening.
"Maybe you aren't as think as you smart you are?"
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9 hours ago, crypto666 said:

I laughed at that.

That is wrong on all accounts.

Tires don't "soak" anything, they have no damping ability.  The same physics that applies to a dribbling basketballs applies to tires.  

Wider tires are going to hit more rocks, because they are wider.  Same reason why fat chicks get rubbed on more at concerts.  

Wider tires are also more prone to pinch flats.  

 

Good thing you included the disclaimer "Depending on the application or the tire will depend on what size" to go with "That is wrong on all accounts."   Together it all makes total sense.  🎅

If HDR is agreeing with you, you may want to rethink whatever it is. 

 

:smirk:  All I ride with are bigger tires riding whatever hard in big rocks tech whatever and haven’t flat a rear tire in something like 15 years or so. :excuseme::ride:  It’s only with hd tubes and running around 3 to 8 lbs or so. That should be a recipe for flats but no flats.

.. and that bigger tires don’t have any dampening? That’s a new one.. what’s with the pent up anger? So you like a smaller tire? You can  just explain why? To me it’s simple. Ride with both and compare. :excuseme:

 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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If I did more gnarly hill climbing I'd go wider. Lots of time with a skinny back tire just feels better for the trail we ride. It's what you can make work and have most fun on the bike. 

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5 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

:smirk:  All I ride with are bigger tires riding whatever hard in big rocks tech whatever and haven’t flat a rear tire in something like 15 years or so. :excuseme::ride:  It’s only with hd tubes and running around 3 to 8 lbs or so. That should be a recipe for flats but no flats.

.. and that bigger tires don’t have any dampening? That’s a new one.. what’s with the pent up anger? So you like a smaller tire? You can  just explain why? To me it’s simple. Ride with both and compare. :excuseme:

 

Don't get all wrapped around the axle (so to speak) and start flipping out like a epileptic crack head on his 20th day of no sleep.  There's a difference between rolling over rocks and blasting through fractured cobble at race speeds with flames blowing out your ass, so of course you haven't had any flats.  

Look up the definition of damping/dampening and then have an engineer explain it to you. 

I don't like any tires, so I keep two wheel sets for loose and hard.   

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55 minutes ago, crypto666 said:

Don't get all wrapped around the axle (so to speak) and start flipping out like a epileptic crack head on his 20th day of no sleep.  There's a difference between rolling over rocks and blasting through fractured cobble at race speeds with flames blowing out your ass, so of course you haven't had any flats.  

Look up the definition of damping/dampening and then have an engineer explain it to you. 

I don't like any tires, so I keep two wheel sets for loose and hard.   

See there you go again. Drain that pissing contest testosterone. I’m just giving my experience of what I ride. You don’t have to get mad . You can just describes what you feel what works for you and for where and in what conditions. If you like. It’s not that big of a deal if you and I disagree on what works on our bikes where we ride and how we ride. Still I can say that a bigger tire behind and even a wider rim helps smooth out the ride. That’s just my experience riding smaller and bigger tires and comparing for a long time. That’s my and some others view but you can not believe it . Up to you. A primer from an engineer doesn’t matter. Ive ridden with wider and smaller. No big deal. 

Heres one bike Ive had with a 2.5” rear rim and an 18” behind. Im an old vet mx and trail rider that still races.. It’s not a big deal if you don’t like this type of setup. 

 

The honda is the wide wheel setup 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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4 hours ago, Burnrider said:

If I did more gnarly hill climbing I'd go wider. Lots of time with a skinny back tire just feels better for the trail we ride. It's what you can make work and have most fun on the bike. 

Yea it’s the particular / weather, riding  terrain and how guys like to ride and set up their bikes too. The  riding like the difference between a 19” and 18” rear rim for enduro smoother riding kind of goes with the thinking of  an 18” tire being larger .  Some are also thinking about how much power a bike has to pull a big tire. Some for instance don’t want a big tire for a 125 for how the added traction is and if the motor can have a harder time pulling that tire and the added strain on the clutch. Some don’t care and welcome the added traction especially in low traction slippery mud situations. There are a bunch of factors in choosing tires.  Different strokes for different folks.  It’s simple though. Ride with a variety of bigger and smaller tires and compare. In the case of my honda cr 250 changing to a 2.5” width rear rim and running the bigger tires has been the best upgrade besides doing the suspension for that bike. That’s for riding here of course and certain tires. 

 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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10 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

See there you go again. Drain that pissing contest testosterone. I’m just giving my experience of what I ride. You don’t have to get mad . You can just describes what you feel what works for you and for where and in what conditions. If you like. It’s not that big of a deal if you and I disagree on what works on our bikes where we ride and how we ride. Still I can say that a bigger tire behind and even a wider rim helps smooth out the ride. That’s just my experience riding smaller and bigger tires and comparing for a long time. That’s my and some others view but you can not believe it . Up to you. A primer from an engineer doesn’t matter. Ive ridden with wider and smaller. No big deal. 

Heres one bike Ive had with a 2.5” rear rim and an 18” behind. Im an old vet mx and trail rider that still races.. It’s not a big deal if you don’t like this type of setup. 

 

The honda is the wide wheel setup 

Honestly, I can't tell any difference between a 120 and 110 and I would rather not pass up a chance to get you all hot and bothered.  I notice how upset you are getting.   Air pressure is a much bigger factor than tire size.  I measured a 110 and 120 last night.  The 110 was about 5" at the widest point, the 120 was 5.5".  That's an extra 1/4" on each side.  

I keep two wheel sets, soft and hard. I run an undersized mousse in the soft.  

It doesn't matter though, until you figure out what damping/dampening is.  

Quote

Damping is any effect, either deliberately engendered or inherent to a system, that tends to reduce the amplitude of oscillations.

In applied mathematics, damping is mathematically modelled as a force with magnitude proportional to that of the velocity of the object but opposite in direction to it. Thus, for a simple mechanical damper, the force F is related to the velocity v by

F=−Rv

 

where R is the damper constant.

This relationship is perfectly analogous to electrical resistance. See Ohm's law.

In playing stringed instruments such as guitar or violin, damping is the quieting or abrupt silencing of the strings after they have been sounded, by pressing with the edge of the palm, or other parts of the hand such as the fingers on one or more strings near the bridge of the instrument. The strings themselves can be modelled as a continuum of infinitesimally small mass-spring-damper systems where the damping constant is much smaller than the resonant frequency, creating damped oscillations (see below). See also Vibrating string.

Tires don't dampen unless they are filled with something that reacts slower than air.  They have no rebound control.  They have no damping.  

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1 hour ago, crypto666 said:

Honestly, I can't tell any difference between a 120 and 110 and I would rather not pass up a chance to get you all hot and bothered.  I notice how upset you are getting.   Air pressure is a much bigger factor than tire size.  I measured a 110 and 120 last night.  The 110 was about 5" at the widest point, the 120 was 5.5".  That's an extra 1/4" on each side.  

I keep two wheel sets, soft and hard. I run an undersized mousse in the soft.  

It doesn't matter though, until you figure out what damping/dampening is.  

Tires don't dampen unless they are filled with something that reacts slower than air.  They have no rebound control.  They have no damping.  

I’m not hot and bothered though. :smirk: Im not upset at all. I just know the difference between how a big tire runs and a smaller tire aswell. Of course big tires dampen. Tires aren’t solid. Tires have a bunch of different compounds and thickness and design and the dampening is adjusted with tire pressure. It’s pretty much duh and you know this. Everyone can tell from tire to tire and different sizes and pressures and different tire design and tread blah blah blah. . Everyone just rides and knows.so your view is to try to throw a sort of mini troll thing? Huh. Well a bigger tire makes a good d:excuseme:ifference :ride:

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I almost don't want to get involved in this but there is a small terminology issue about damping here.  Think of your suspension and its rebound and compression damping.  They have separate adjusters because they have differing effects on your ride.  Tires provide almost no rebound damping regardless of air pressure in the tire.  After being compressed from hitting a rock they just spring back out.  They also have no real compression damping AFTER THE INITIAL IMPACT with an obstacle.  Tires don't dampen any compression or rebound oscillation.  Unless over-inflated however, tires DO provide some compression damping DURING THE INITIAL HIT.  Hitting a rock with hard, solid rubber tires would transmit the full impact shock to the suspension.  Suitably inflated pneumatic tires absorb some of that impact to dampen the speed of the speed of the wheel travel so that it is less harsh and also reduce the amount of wheel travel in the new direction so that the resulting vector of the wheel's axle is a little closer to its original line of travel (thus making the ride a bit smoother).  Can we all agree with this?

Has this all just been a private joke between the two main opponents here?

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57 minutes ago, Max17 said:

I almost don't want to get involved in this but there is a small terminology issue about damping here.  Think of your suspension and its rebound and compression damping.  They have separate adjusters because they have differing effects on your ride.  Tires provide almost no rebound damping regardless of air pressure in the tire.  After being compressed from hitting a rock they just spring back out.  They also have no real compression damping AFTER THE INITIAL IMPACT with an obstacle.  Tires don't dampen any compression or rebound oscillation.  Unless over-inflated however, tires DO provide some compression damping DURING THE INITIAL HIT.  Hitting a rock with hard, solid rubber tires would transmit the full impact shock to the suspension.  Suitably inflated pneumatic tires absorb some of that impact to dampen the speed of the speed of the wheel travel so that it is less harsh and also reduce the amount of wheel travel in the new direction so that the resulting vector of the wheel's axle is a little closer to its original line of travel (thus making the ride a bit smoother).  Can we all agree with this?

Has this all just been a private joke between the two main opponents here?

Thankyou for playing! 

Actually no private joke. Just throwing the bull around talking dirtbikes... and Anyone can throw in their 2 cents on whatever. On my side Im just giving my view from my experience. People can agree or not agree and that’s fine . Anyone can think what they like. Honestly I really do disagree with you on tires having zero dampening in compression and rebound. Of course there is and there’s a dramatic difference depending on tire size , design and tire pressure and composition. We aren’t riding around on steel wheels. Put a bicycle tire and rim on a dirtbike and compare to a regular dirtbike wheel. Duh. It’s simple . Different tires have different levels of compression and rebound dampening then add in tire pressure and it’s greatly varied and adjusted again. Just stating the overly obvious unless you are playing a tiny on the troll side too? Not really concerned either way.. just talking and waiting a little in the Walmart parking lot before I gotta go. 

Again the simple way is to just ride with a variety of tires and wheels and air pressure and compare. My bigger setup rear wheel.. well front too for that matter make a big difference  while riding of course also mixing different tire pressure. 

Ride your bike with exact same suspension setup and change tires and size. See the difference.  Simple right. 

My honda in my vid above in addition to having racetech goldvalved and springs for my weight has a 20” front wheel and an 18” 2.5” width rear rim. The larger tires make a huge difference. Know that in 2001 Honda provided a factory option for choose between a 20” or 21” front tire. Supposedly to soften the feel of a stiffer aluminum frame cr that year with the 20”. Now guys just buy 90/100-21 for a close enough effect. Still the 20” front smoothed out the ride (compression and rebound dampening) and helped the front end stick in turns and improved braking. I wish tires were still available as I think it’s great. The 90/100-21 tires now are easy though. Guys can just change back and forth from 80/100-21 etc. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/motocrossactionmag.com/amp/the-20-inch-tire-revolution/

as far as the rear tires? Just look at mx and enduro tires differences.  Well gotta go now. Continue the moto bs when Im not driving in whatever amount of minutes.

Just for trivias sake Ty Davis was a 20” front tire guy. He dropped it when tire availability went south.

 

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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