Sub 200lb club!

[woodsryder]

I mean bikes not riders,.. Someone should start a website for owners of sub 200lb dirtbikes. The restrictions should be:

Adult sized dirt bikes with full size wheels.

Long travel suspension 10.5 inches travel or more.

No trials bikes, no mini bikes, no bicycle parts.

Any displacement

Must be real and ridable. No ultra fragile construction or impractical engines. I could brobably get under 50 lbs with a bamboo frame and six model airplane engines screaming at 40000 rpm but you wouldn't want to trail ride it.

Ive seen more contenders here than anywhere else because of the sweet little Honda engines but the information gets scattered and lost in the archives. It would be great to have a website to keep it all in one place and encourage other individuals and manufacturers to build on others success.

Edited July 10, 2013 by woodsryder

[Chuck.]

I started down the path to less than 200lbs but got sidetracked by functional requirements like bark busters, Trials tire, side stand, skid plate/bars, etc.

Several issues with a XR200:

Frame with foot pegs is 25lbs.

18" rear wheel adds weight over 17"

Trials tire is heavier than a knobby.

Tank is heavy

[Swiss]

Chuck,

You can take off another lb. or so by swapping to the Clarke tank

http://clarkemfg.com/universal-tank-p-217.html

They don't have a photo on their web site but I have had one on my '83 XR200R for many years. Takes a slight mod to the front edge of the seat because it is taller than the small factory tank, but it also carries an extra gallon of gas.

Swiss

They used to have several photos of this tank because it fit several different bikes but for some reason they "lost" It and you get the dreaded X in the corner of the box!

Your steering damper is also adding to your weight problems! HA!HA!

I agree with Ryder that there needs to be a website!

[Chuck.]

Your steering damper is also adding to your weight problems! HA!HA!

I blew a seal on it end of last summer so I pulled it, I haven't missed it yet but I haven't clipped any fir trees in a few years. ?

[woodsryder]

Ha,.. why is it always the same three people who care about light weight?

I think we're barking at the wind and the rest of the world cares more about their sacred electric start and flashy styling than weight. Hey,.. just because we are the insignificant minority, doesn't mean we aren't right!

I'm tired of putting effort into sharing info in forum threads because they just fade into oblivion. If there was a sticky post or website that would stay around, I could justify more effort. A website would also help gauge outside interest and could build momentum but forum rants are just a dead end. I'm just the wrong guy to create a website.

Edited July 11, 2013 by woodsryder

[Chuck.]

My riding buddy is more adamant about light weight than I am, always has been, he just doesn't spend much time on TT, so maybe there are 4.

He is covetous of my Montesa 315R because it is 10 lbs lighter than his Montesa 4RT, but I think the difference in riding has more to do with the difference between a 2T and a 4T. ? . His 4RT with trail setup is lighter than 183 lbs.

I really would like to bust below 200 lbs but there are some expensive obstacles in the way. Now that I have some time on a Trials bike (including cracked ribs from jumping logs) I think there are more options for dirt bikes. I use to ride MX bikes on trails because they had the best suspension but now with modern suspension I can get by with quality damping and 10" of travel. But time marches on so this past winter I considered adding a modern watercooled contraption to my stable because of its better suspension in spite of the increased weight over my XR200.

[Swiss]

Ryder,

I think that the 3 of us are the MOST Radical of the Dirt Bike World. Roger Grainger's TM400 Suzuki would qualify at 172lbs.. Barry Watkins' AZ Yamaha MX 194lb. from the early '70s would qualify, As would his 360cc 197lb. Yamaha Superlight! Also very early '70s... Both of those has very short suspension travel for what we want.

There was a Montesa 4RT that was built for the Trail, The Berghem 250 Prototype that was probably under 200lbs. but I don't have the exact weight.

There have been a few others built. Plenty of Trials bikes under 200lbs. but you eliminated them. 4-Strokes makes them harder to find. My old 125/200 was under 190lbs. in all of its builds, as low as 176lbs. or so..

Others are benefiting from our weights and notes and writings on weight reduction but most do not carry it far enough to get below 200lbs.

Swiss

Chuck is looking at water-cooled and here I am making plans for an air-cooled 350cc Honda Freeride at sub-200lbs! Revenge of the Retro-Bikes! HA!HA!

Oh and don't discount Flacos CRF150R with the 21"/19" wheels which is also sub-200lbs.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Swiss

[woodsryder]

There is plenty of evidence light bikes can be built without limitations in performance or durablity. It can even be done with fairly mundane oem parts and no exotic materials. I have rolling proof of that right now. Most of the light bikes came from the 70's before there were weight limits in racing. Sub 200lbs isn't even such a lofty goal because you can do so much better. The problem is that its going to remain a topic talked about by a few crazy people in some obscure place until we stick it in the face of the general public and make them want it. The manufacurers only care about what the public wants.

Every manufacturer has 98% of the parts needed to do this in their existing inventory, they are just missing a frame specifically designed to tie them together and the knowledge there is a market for it. A website may help with that. The chassis are easy but there are only a few good engine choices, Imagine if Honda actually designed a simple light engine with todays knowledge of performance, or imagine if we could get special tires and rims with lower load ratings and weight!! Remember there was a time when it was thought anything more than 6 inches would be too much suspension to control. We need to change conventional thinking about the need for light weight.

Oh well, maybe if I start a simple site using a template you guys can help me create a gallery of light bikes. Each photo could link to a feature page with specs. Maybe a database of component weights and engine weights? I remember an extensive list of dual sport bike weights I saw somewhere too. Adding a forum would be ideal but that goes way beyond my computer skills. Crazy fanatics like us might come out of the woodwork to contribute and we'll start a revolution. Forum threads like this could link to the website as a reference place.

I'll look into setting something up from a canned template now and maybe down the line I'll find a web guru who also rides dirt bikes and will offer to improve it?

Edited July 11, 2013 by woodsryder

[Swiss]

I can look into it and see what it will take to set up with my Email account. They say I can have a free web site along with my email accounts. Let me know. Could be the Swiss Cheese Factory Sub-200lb. site.

Swiss

[Swiss]

I mean bikes not riders,.. Someone should start a website for owners of sub 200lb dirtbikes. The restrictions should be:

Adult sized dirt bikes with full size wheels.

Long travel suspension 10.5 inches travel or more.

No trials bikes, no mini bikes, no bicycle parts.

Any displacement

Must be real and ridable. No ultra fragile construction or impractical engines. I could brobably get under 50 lbs with a bamboo frame and six model airplane engines screaming at 40000 rpm but you wouldn't want to trail ride it.

Ive seen more contenders here than anywhere else because of the sweet little Honda engines but the information gets scattered and lost in the archives. It would be great to have a website to keep it all in one place and encourage other individuals and manufacturers to build on others success.

OK, lets develop the idea of a web site. Ryder, you say no Trials bikes, but as Chuck mentioned his buddy has an 4RT that is Trail converted and sub-200lbs.. Flaco's CRF150R has 21 and 19 wheels and is sub-200lbs.

The catch is that we can learn and expand our ability to build good full-sized lightweight Trail Bikes from the Trials and Mini-Bike and even the Bicycle based bikes like the FX... I would tend to suggest a web site that was based on weight optimization regardless of these related categories. If you need to then separate them with different Pages for the Trials/Trail based machines and the MIni-based machines etc. Yes, keep it a basic format of Full sized bikes but even some of the mini-bikers might like weight saving tips and ideas for their bikes! You could also separate it with 2-strokers and Thumpers but there will be ideas that crossover from one bike design to the other. It would be nice to be able to find charts with weights of different handlebars or forks, and engines and even specifics like carb weights and tires with weights and dimensions/recommendations. Does this tire wear well when run in rocks? Is it a good sand tire? Etc... Pages with links to shop/manufacturer web sites for products like "Tubliss" or Tire Balls etc...

Name for the web site? Sub-200lb. probably won't cut it! HA!HA! ?

Forum or just reference pages with data and images? A forum would cost more and be more complicated. A forum could be separate but linked. You have to consider Security for either Web Site Hosting or Forum with backups available so that data isn't lost if someone tries to toss a Virus into the mix! Wiki like format could be cool but you have a problem of someone uploading some incorrect or bogus info?

Allow advertising from Shops? LIghtweight stuff or anything cycle related? Provide links to shops with or without fees? What to restrict in the postings if in the Forum? Allow direct uploads of material, lists/weights/photos/tips/topics? Some direction and focus is needed to work things out! I helped to set up the OldRice XL pages with lots of contributions of article pages and photos etc.. But it became a hassle to get things posted because Geoff who owned the site lost his direct interest in it and was sent items for posting that would not get put up for months!

Lets discuss this stuff and work out some details of what we might want to web site/forum to give back to us. IF we are a limited size group then it will also mean that visits and new material could be slow in coming in! Like the OldRice XL Honda pages they aren't active like ThumperTalk!

Swiss

[woodsryder]

Crap,.. I had a long reply typed then lost it. When will I learn to compose offline? Good points Swiss, I'm considering doing this and absorbing the costs since I may make a business out of it and this will be good market research. Ignoring the "teaser" promo rates of $2.99 a mo., a website and domain name average just under $400 a year.

I like a forum and most hosting come with simple ones now. I would also like to welcome content and input from others like yourself because I don't sit in front of computers any more than I have to. I think its possible to assign multiple people admin privileges to upload stuff and moderate forums etc.

I'm too stubborn to let this idea drop, it needs to happen! I've been waffling about producing frames because I head south for the winters and don't have a shop there. I just started construction on a small cabin in Florida with a nice shop so I can play snowbird and still build stuff year round. This website could both prime the market and evaluate it to gauge interest in light bikes for a possible business.

[Swiss]

Yea, I have had nice LONG replies all typed in and then hit a key? Not sure even what key it is but everything goes away and it pages back to the topic without the reply! So now I often do a "Ctrl A" to select all in the text and then "Ctrl C" to copy it. That way if it dumps I can do a "Ctrl V" to paste it into another blank page!

Need a catchy name! Suggestions anyone?

Forum is great and I think that you can get something for less than $400/year still with quality. Like I said though you need the backup and protection taken care of.

You also have to remember if you are going to build frames you need the Liability aspect worked out. Racing ONLY! Limited Warranty to workmanship etc... Read a post on Air Forks the other day where a guy couldn't get his buddies' Air Fork to adjust and work right! Seems that his buddy is 350lbs. and riding a dirt bike! Wow! Talk about potential failure mode!!

Swiss

Volunteer to help with Admin and upload chores and Monitor if needed. Some folks run their web sites from yearly donations so you might consider a Membership/donation thing, but not for everyone since many will just visit and not contribute TT did the same thing in the beginning until they got so many ads that they really don't need the membership idea beyond a "Special Priviledge" function. I took a web design class a few years back and can run some rough HTML code and also have an AS Degree in Graphic Arts if needed.

[mx4god]

I have never posted on these lightweight topics, but read through most of them gathering info for the future because it greatly interests me. I'm all for lighter bikes. I love my 125 2 strokes in the woods, but only being 5'6", it gets a little tough in the rough stuff, and a four stroke would make it a little easier to ride. I'm a young and motivated machinist, and have some welding experience as well.

I've been trying to finish my xr100 conversion so I can move on to bigger and better things, but working second shift overtime leaves no free time. I've been looking for a late 80s xr200, but they're hard to come by. I'm pretty good with websites. My main one is motocross hideout. I'm starting a new first shift job in a couple weeks, so I'll have some more free time!

[woodsryder]

Lite-bikes.com is still available but all other spellings are taken. I'll grab it today and can keep looking for something better. Just need to find a good hosting package with a site builder that has a forum. I would want something for dummies with a decent template that can be tweaked by someone with a better eye for graphics than me. If there isn't some kind of automatic backup system I won't know how to do it. I'm open to recommendations for all in one domain name, hosting, site builder packages.

Liability is a worry but I usually make the disclaimers so blunt they are funny. My warranties are usually to repair or replace (my option) the first time then refund the second. That keeps the 350 lb guys from bankrupting me with repairs.

I'll take the plunge and then beg for help along the way. It will take some planning but I agree the scope should be widened with sections for trials and bicycle hybrids too. You can learn a lot from those areas. I'm one of those guys who is turned off by bloated flashy sites where you can't find anything so a priority will be function over form, just like my bikes. Minimalist but effective.

[Chuck.]

Fat Cow does hosting and my cost over the years have been very low, and they have great support. You should check them out.

[mx_43]

bump.

can't wait to see the site! It sounds cool!

[mx4god]

What all will the site consist of, what are the goals, and who will be able to add content to it? We use hostgator, but that may be a few bucks more, plus you'd buy a domain name separately.

[woodsryder]

I am following through with this but it has to happen between everything else. For the most part I want it to be a resource center starting with a gallery of light bikes past and present. The point is to encourage and inspire, The motorcycle industry just isn't getting it and I believe weight reduction needs to be the next trend.

The lightest parts are the ones you leave off the bike, so the site needs to promote minimalist design and function over form. Its not about billet parts, carbon fiber, and electronics. Its about parts reduction through simplification and careful selection of parts that are not overbuilt for the job. There's little need to invent anything new, most components needed are in every manufacturers inventory and they just need to be combined into one bike. If your interested more in visual styling or high tech electronics and features, the industry already caters to you. We need to shift the focus to better function, lower cost and more reliability through intelligent design.

I'll take help wherever I can get it. After enough content is added and organized, I hope to find someone that can clean up the websites appearance and functionality. I plan to lean on Swiss and Chuck and others who have good information to share. A short list of content might be

A photo gallery of light bikes with specs

A list of possible engine choices and weights.

A database of component weights.

A database of motorcycle weights.

Documentation of what has already been successfully done by others.

Possibly a forum or contact list so people can communicate directly and share info offsite.

Stay tuned!!

[mx4god]

Sounds, good. While I do like high tech stuff, I agree that a lot of things should be simpler and lighter. The lighter the better! I keep asking why cars are getting heavier again these days when they keep using cheaper/lighter materials such as plastic... They keep adding junk to them.

[woodsryder]

Many of the parts are getting lighter but the overall weight stays the same. Newer bikes are even resorting to TI shock springs and footpegs to offset the batteries, e-start and fuel injection. Its a tragedy that your average modern MXer weighs more than 35 year old vintage bikes. Todays bikes have even regressed to the point where all bike sizes share the same size chassis components.

Trials bikes are leading the way for now and bicycles have always been weight conscious. Now that MX suspension and engines have matured, the next frontier is performance through reduced weight.

Two big things are holding us back right now,.. marketing departments think we just want more styling and features, and consumers use high strung race bikes to trail ride because no one makes a decent trail bike. Its time for a new category of affordable and simple ultralight playbikes. Combine competition quality suspension with reliable ridable engines and WAY less weight. It will take just one ride to convince anyone.