All new class structure idea

[Sheriff245]

I was just reading the C-class thread and was about to post a reply, then realized maybe my post warranted a new thread about class structures. I think some countries in Europe use similar systems, and I'm curious to hear some opinions on it.

 

People complain about sandbagging. Maybe it's the top 5 C riders who are sandbaggers, maybe the back benchers in the B class shouldn't have moved up in the first place. The problem is, the level of competition varies so much from one area to another that in the end, the class you race in doesn't matter much.

 

I had a discussion with a Belgian guy recently. He just moved to Canada maybe 2 years ago and says he doesn't understand why we went with this class structure. He suggested we use a unified system. Since many organisations use transponders now, we could use practice lap times to make up the classes on a per-race basis. Take the top 40 lap times to form the A class, put 41-80 in B, and so on. This way, no excuses, no sandbagging, and everybody is fighting for a global ranking. If you're at the top of your class, you will work hard to move up at the next race. If you're at the back of the pack, you'll make efforts to keep your place in your class. Sure, some riders could take it easy in practice to win their motos later on, but going to a lower class would actually make their results worse.

 

There would be some details to work out, and I'm not sure the riders are ready for such a change in the traditional structure, but I feel it would be a good way to get rid of sandbagging.

 

What do you guys think?

[DethWshBkr_]

I was just reading the C-class thread and was about to post a reply, then realized maybe my post warranted a new thread about class structures. I think some countries in Europe use similar systems, and I'm curious to hear some opinions on it.

 

People complain about sandbagging. Maybe it's the top 5 C riders who are sandbaggers, maybe the back benchers in the B class shouldn't have moved up in the first place. The problem is, the level of competition varies so much from one area to another that in the end, the class you race in doesn't matter much.

 

I had a discussion with a Belgian guy recently. He just moved to Canada maybe 2 years ago and says he doesn't understand why we went with this class structure. He suggested we use a unified system. Since many organisations use transponders now, we could use practice lap times to make up the classes on a per-race basis. Take the top 40 lap times to form the A class, put 41-80 in B, and so on. This way, no excuses, no sandbagging, and everybody is fighting for a global ranking. If you're at the top of your class, you will work hard to move up at the next race. If you're at the back of the pack, you'll make efforts to keep your place in your class. Sure, some riders could take it easy in practice to win their motos later on, but going to a lower class would actually make their results worse.

 

There would be some details to work out, and I'm not sure the riders are ready for such a change in the traditional structure, but I feel it would be a good way to get rid of sandbagging.

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

Aside from people sandbagging practice - what if someone goes down because of an issue that was not their fault.  Lets say I am a solid A class rider, but I go down in practice.   I get timed to go into B class.

 

Of course, those are the nuts and bolts of it but that's an issue.

 

My thoughts are this - A, B, C, just like we have now - but we have "field promotions".  

Last race I went to, I watched the C class riders.   ONE guy was 30 seconds ahead by the end of the first lap, 6 lap race, on a 2:10 average lap time track.  He was the ONLY C class rider clearing a 110' table, which is right out of a corner, and it was muddy.   Most B guys were not jumping it, and still only a large handful of A guys were jumping it.

 

This rider should have been bumped into the B class for Moto 2.    

THAT would discourage sandbaggers.    You get THAT obvious of a class inconsistancy, you get bumped on site after moto 1.   You can't win anything, because you didn't complete in both motos in either class.

[xteammike]

I like the idea, the format now has some big problems

[Sheriff245]

Aside from people sandbagging practice - what if someone goes down because of an issue that was not their fault.  Lets say I am a solid A class rider, but I go down in practice.   I get timed to go into B class.

 

Of course, those are the nuts and bolts of it but that's an issue.

You go by best lap, not position, so unless the guy breaks his bike on the first lap and can't get it fixed by the end of practice he still has a chance to make it. In the current structure, if someone goes down in a moto he gets scored his actual position too.

 

But there might be some way to give a fair chance, like an LCQ for those who completed less than X laps or something like that.

[J_YZ2fittyX]

You go by best lap, not position, so unless the guy breaks his bike on the first lap and can't get it fixed by the end of practice he still has a chance to make it. In the current structure, if someone goes down in a moto he gets scored his actual position too.

 

But there might be some way to give a fair chance, like an LCQ for those who completed less than X laps or something like that.

 

 

Ya there would have to be something like that. I mean what if it timed the A guy as one or two laps with a broken bike after he crashed in the first lap of the first practice. Lol. I mean, then he would have a C class time and be in C? So ya thered have to be some kinda LCQ type deal. I mean this would take an extreme set of circumstances to happen, but just sayin. It is an interesting idea though.

[emerybrian]

I agree that the current system is extremely convoluted, and I've tried to find another sport where participants avoid being advanced, but haven't found one yet.  Everyone talks about "sandbaggers", but it's not the riders to blame, this is the way the system works. 

 

I, too, have thought about the same type of system where everyone races each other.  Sounds cool on paper, but the following would be issues:

 

1.  Talk to anyone who races national, timed qualifying can be sketchy.  Some fast kid on a flying lap passing old vets would be dangerous.

2.  Most people won't race an open skill level class. 

[DethWshBkr_]

Ya there would have to be something like that. I mean what if it timed the A guy as one or two laps with a broken bike after he crashed in the first lap of the first practice. Lol. I mean, then he would have a C class time and be in C? So ya thered have to be some kinda LCQ type deal. I mean this would take an extreme set of circumstances to happen, but just sayin. It is an interesting idea though.

 

 

Timing involves COMPLETELY changing everything though.

Also, with timing - how would that happen?   Days are so long already for most races, there is no way there is time to do a "timed qualifying" and then an "lcq" type of seeding system.

 

Just doing it exactly like it has been done, but say in your riders meeting "YOU WILL BE BUMPED TO THE NEXT CLASS if you are obviously sandbagging"

What defines sandbagging?   Well, that depends, and that would need discussed.   It is possible I could go to a track and finish 4th in the C class, then go to another track, and I am just ON my game, and the track really works for me, and I end up 35 seconds ahead by lap one.   I think if you have a rider who is dominating the C class (250, 450, or whatever) they should be noted and all race promoters made aware of it so this guy is watched.  MOST places use computers anymore, so a "watch listed" rider could be monitored very easily.  

Perhaps it was just a REALLY good day, that's no reason to issue them a field promotion either....

Edited August 28, 2013 by DethWshBkr_

[Sheriff245]

Timing involves COMPLETELY changing everything though.

Also, with timing - how would that happen?   Days are so long already for most races, there is no way there is time to do a "timed qualifying" and then an "lcq" type of seeding system.

 

 

Timing can be done with transponders. We use the AMB transponders (provided by sanctioning body at the staging area) in practice for first moto gate pick. The days are so long because everybody wants to race 2-3 classes, so they add classes so you can do it, but the day just gets longer so you wait just as much between your motos. The way we solved the problem is to split the schedule in two blocks and we use a separate track for the pee wees. Practice starts at 8:30, two practices and 2 motos per class and we're done by 4:15 most of the time. When you practice twice and race twice in  a 4-hour span, you've had enough. Vets can do two classes, and we have a 2 stroke class, so some vet experts with 250s can triple-class it, but they always end up skipping a few motos.

 

For the safety factor in practice, there must be some kind of "ranking" set up (kind of like seeded practice at the Nationals) so riders of similar skill share the track. You can divide riders into age groups, say 15-19, 20-29 and 30+ for the A-B-C-D... classes (number of classes depends on the number of entries). On larger tracks, you do staggered starts for multi-classes (say, 15-29C starts 15 seconds after 20-29C and share the track for their moto if both classes have under 25 entries).

[KJ790]

Do any of you guys race AMA events or are they all just random local races that are unsanctioned by anyone? Around here there doesn't seem to be too much of a sand bagging issue overall. Here is how the rules for the C class read in my district's rule book:

 

"A Novice rider will be allowed to stay in the class for the season at which time their promotion will be calculated by the AMA 15% RPV method. Any Novice rider dominating the class may be promoted at any time per referee or CNYMRA Board. Novice riders my self promote at any time."

 

It doesn't seem too bad to me. Sure there are some sand baggers once in a while, but all in all it isn't too bad. Since this is an AMA sanctioned district, if they try to jump districts and race other ones their results still count towards their RPV percentage. The only way they can avoid being bumped up is to start DNFing races.

 

I feel like no matter what, the slower riders are going to complain that the guys winning are sandbagging. So you force the top 5 out of a class and now you have a new set of 5 guys winning every week. The guys in the back of the pack will complain and you will force the new 5 guys out and another set of 5 guys will be winning and so on and so on. Everyone cannot be a winner. If you want to win the C class or D class, the best way in my opinion is to practice and get faster.
 

[LovingOffroadPain]

There are pros and cons to this concept of classes.  The pros is that it would help prevent sandbagging, but those guys could also just ride a little slower in practice to get into a lower class.

 

The negative side is it would cause upheaval in the circuits.  I race against the same 10-25 guys throughout the season in the Open A class, and I can compare race times, test times, etc to the same guys and gauge my improvement.  Also another problem would be the guys, especially kids, who improve throughout the season.  If they jump from a slow C rider to a solid B rider in 7 months, they won't have a chance to trophy the C class if they were automatically bumped up to a B rider--then there are year end class award considerations.

 

It's an interesting thought though.  I think the best way to prevent sandbagging is to have a panel of people, experience racers, who are voted into a committee each year by the racing circuit and have the authority to make judgements on who is truly sandbagging.  It's hard to determine who's bagging it just by looking at lap times.  I have overalled the B classes many times, and in those times also rode way faster than a good number of A riders.  Now that I'm an Open A rider, there are times when the top B riders are a bit faster than me.  It makes me cry.  But it doesn't make me want them in my class, because then I would have a tougher time winning!!

[KJ790]

There are pros and cons to this concept of classes.  The pros is that it would help prevent sandbagging, but those guys could also just ride a little slower in practice to get into a lower class.

 

The negative side is it would cause upheaval in the circuits.  I race against the same 10-25 guys throughout the season in the Open A class, and I can compare race times, test times, etc to the same guys and gauge my improvement.  Also another problem would be the guys, especially kids, who improve throughout the season.  If they jump from a slow C rider to a solid B rider in 7 months, they won't have a chance to trophy the C class if they were automatically bumped up to a B rider--then there are year end class award considerations.

 

It's an interesting thought though.  I think the best way to prevent sandbagging is to have a panel of people, experience racers, who are voted into a committee each year by the racing circuit and have the authority to make judgements on who is truly sandbagging.  It's hard to determine who's bagging it just by looking at lap times.  I have overalled the B classes many times, and in those times also rode way faster than a good number of A riders.  Now that I'm an Open A rider, there are times when the top B riders are a bit faster than me.  It makes me cry.  But it doesn't make me want them in my class, because then I would have a tougher time winning!!

 

 

I agree. I race the A class as well, and most weekends the top B guys are as fast or faster than me, but I have managed to make money at 75% of the races I have gone to this year. There are plenty of times when I am not riding my best, but other guys have issues and I finish well enough to make money. If they had gone off of lap times and forced me to be in the B class that day I would be pissed that I missed an opportunity to make money. It varies from track to track and day to day as well. Three weeks ago I won both motos of 250A and this past weekend I struggled and went 6-5 in 250A, while the guys that I beat three weeks ago walked away from me. There were definitely B guys that were faster than me this past weekend. Some days I am on and feel good, some days I am off and don't feel comfortable. I'm sure if I was forced to race the B class on days where I was riding a little off then people would complain that I am a sandbagger because I have won the A class before.

[cgirouard423]

Aside from people sandbagging practice - what if someone goes down because of an issue that was not their fault.  Lets say I am a solid A class rider, but I go down in practice.   I get timed to go into B class.

 

Of course, those are the nuts and bolts of it but that's an issue.

 

My thoughts are this - A, B, C, just like we have now - but we have "field promotions".  

Last race I went to, I watched the C class riders.   ONE guy was 30 seconds ahead by the end of the first lap, 6 lap race, on a 2:10 average lap time track.  He was the ONLY C class rider clearing a 110' table, which is right out of a corner, and it was muddy.   Most B guys were not jumping it, and still only a large handful of A guys were jumping it.

 

This rider should have been bumped into the B class for Moto 2.    

THAT would discourage sandbaggers.    You get THAT obvious of a class inconsistancy, you get bumped on site after moto 1.   You can't win anything, because you didn't complete in both motos in either class.

i see you are from the new england area. were you at the vurb classic? there was a rider there doing EXACTLY what you described. 2:10 times and clearing the big table. he was whipping it harder than Jimmy D was (im not even joking). if so, i was in this class with him (250C) and jt was nuts. he lapped me in 3 laps. The Vurb Classic was all sandbaggers. normally the kids winning in the normal Maine mx series couldnt even get top 10's.

[Sheriff245]

There are pros and cons to this concept of classes.  The pros is that it would help prevent sandbagging, but those guys could also just ride a little slower in practice to get into a lower class.

 

The negative side is it would cause upheaval in the circuits.  I race against the same 10-25 guys throughout the season in the Open A class, and I can compare race times, test times, etc to the same guys and gauge my improvement.  Also another problem would be the guys, especially kids, who improve throughout the season.  If they jump from a slow C rider to a solid B rider in 7 months, they won't have a chance to trophy the C class if they were automatically bumped up to a B rider--then there are year end class award considerations.

 

It's an interesting thought though.  I think the best way to prevent sandbagging is to have a panel of people, experience racers, who are voted into a committee each year by the racing circuit and have the authority to make judgements on who is truly sandbagging.  It's hard to determine who's bagging it just by looking at lap times.  I have overalled the B classes many times, and in those times also rode way faster than a good number of A riders.  Now that I'm an Open A rider, there are times when the top B riders are a bit faster than me.  It makes me cry.  But it doesn't make me want them in my class, because then I would have a tougher time winning!!

The way I understand your post, you seem to see the classes like they are in the current system. There are no trophies for each class because it is all a global ranking. A kit who improves won't get a "C class championship" trophy. Instead, his goal would be to move up a class. When he's made it to B in one race, he will try to climb his way up, and so on. The class you would be racing one day only determines the amount of points you would make on that day.

 

Of course, the points you score go towards your global rank in the series, not a single-class championship chase. Kind of like Pro tennis. Results from a single tournament have an influence on your world ranking, not just where you stand compared to the individual players you played against.

 

I understand your ideas though. This concept is completely different from the current paradigm.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Sheriff245

[KJ790]

The way I understand your post, you seem to see the classes like they are in the current system. There are no trophies for each class because it is all a global ranking. A kit who improves won't get a "C class championship" trophy. Instead, his goal would be to move up a class. When he's made it to B in one race, he will try to climb his way up, and so on. The class you would be racing one day only determines the amount of points you would make on that day.

 

Of course, the points you score go towards your global rank in the series, not a single-class championship chase. Kind of like Pro tennis. Results from a single tournament have an influence on your world ranking, not just where you stand compared to the individual players you played against.

 

I understand your ideas though. This concept is completely different from the current paradigm.

Maybe I don't understand correctly. If there were no trophies for any class and no real winners then there would be no point in racing. If I understand you correctly you want a global ranking for everyone in the country. Why would the average guy even want to race for a chance to move from 14,982 in rank up to 14,981 in rank? I think all the people complaining that they never win the C class would be even more upset if there was only one winner in the whole country and everyone else was nothing.

Edited August 28, 2013 by KJ790

[cgirouard423]

I think its okay the way it is. Only change that wouod make sense would be to monitor lap time and finishing pos.

For example if one kid dominates the spring series the organization should be forcing him or her to move up. What im seeing now is the only way riders are moving up is when they have maxed out the allowed promo poimts for both "youth (125 YC)" and "regular (250C amd 450C)" which snt right and is what I call sandbagging.

[Andrew13]

Seems like a good idea. Maybe give start gate selection to those with the fastest times. Or try to find something to inspire people to go all out in practice.

 

It would probably take too long, but maybe have everyone run one lap as fast as they can by themselves - it will be harder for someone to gauge how slow/fast they are going without other people around them.

[DethWshBkr_]

i see you are from the new england area. were you at the vurb classic? there was a rider there doing EXACTLY what you described. 2:10 times and clearing the big table. he was whipping it harder than Jimmy D was (im not even joking). if so, i was in this class with him (250C) and jt was nuts. he lapped me in 3 laps. The Vurb Classic was all sandbaggers. normally the kids winning in the normal Maine mx series couldnt even get top 10's.

 

 

No, this was a race at Tomahawk MX in West Virginia.    It's an unsanctioned event, the MastersMX series.  

I ran 30+B, having not raced in 7 years, and not really been riding for the past three years, finally started riding again this year, every other weekend.

One kid in the Open C or 250C class it was.   They were like moto 8, and the experts in moto 6 were not jumping this table due to the absolute horrendously slick conditions.   It was the worst riding conditions I think I have ever been in.

[ohio rusty spokes]

"I agree that the current system is extremely convoluted, and I've tried to find another sport where participants avoid being advanced, but haven't found one yet.  Everyone talks about "sandbaggers", but it's not the riders to blame, this is the way the system works."

 

 

How about drag racing?

[Sheriff245]

Maybe I don't understand correctly. If there were no trophies for any class and no real winners then there would be no point in racing. If I understand you correctly you want a global ranking for everyone in the country. Why would the average guy even want to race for a chance to move from 14,982 in rank up to 14,981 in rank? I think all the people complaining that they never win the C class would be even more upset if there was only one winner in the whole country and everyone else was nothing.

It's not like you're actually something when you win C class at a local race either...

The ranking would probably be more at the local level, but there could be a National ranking as well. There could still be trophies for each class, but the idea is to change the mentality and let the riders focus on bettering their skills instead of going for trophies.

 

I think it would work better for one-off races and unsanctioned (non-AMA) events.

[emerybrian]

 

 

How about drag racing?

 

Yeah, great point about drag racing.  Those guys that have a car that could run an 8.00 yet race the 9.90 bracket class, idle for a couple seconds down the track before they hammer it.  That class is bizarre!  And sort of similar to a fast rider racing the beginner class...

Edited August 29, 2013 by emerybrian