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CRF450R 13 clutch drag

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Hey again!

I used to get bad clutch drag when the engine was warm. I changed out steel plates, and after that it has been much better, but still sometimes, it makes a strange "tsip" sound (sounds like clutch plates would touch) and engine dies. After that it starts to drag, but only at idle rpm, as soon as I give it gas it goes away. Since I changed steel plates out, the dragging goes away fast if I go riding, but comes back sometime later.

I have opened the clutch - basket, hub, pressure plate, look almost new. 
Judder spring is out, all friction plates are the same and in specs, but look a bit burnt maybe. Steel plates new. Springs in spec and all same length.

My next move is to buy all new clutch kit (all plates and springs), but I don´t see how will it fix it.

Anyone has any idea what is wrong with the clutch? What makes the plates touch one second, and sometimes after one corner it is all right again. Or maybe t is not the plates doing that sound?

 

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What are you running for oil? If you're running a synthetic or any oil that says "energy conserving" on the rating circle on the bottle that could be the cause of your problems.

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What are you running for oil? If you're running a synthetic or any oil that says "energy conserving" on the rating circle on the bottle that could be the cause of your problems.

Got Motorex 4t top speed 10w 40. works def. fine. Most of Honda club guys run it.

If it starts dragging when I´m standing, at idle rpm, gear in, it does this "tsip" sound, and engine insta dies. After that I get dragging, I think the sound comes from clutch, and I think that it sounds just like plates touching. So why do they randomly touch? As I said there´s no grooves anywhere.

And strange is that if I give it just a bit gas it frees the clutch and as the rpm drops to idle, it slowly starts dragging again. If I go riding, it usually goes away quite fast.

Edited by sandman1111

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d0sw.jpg

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Steel plates are old ones. There's no grooves, can barely feel by hand. Strange discoloration on hub.

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You sure you got the plate vs fiber order correct, and the quantity of each plate?

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The steel plates in the pic above look overheated to me. And the pressure plate surface looks quite worn.

There should be no ridge around the plate surface.

Also check the oil holes in the inner basket. Make sure they're not blocked with sludge.

 

I would not recommend 10w 40 motor oil in the transmission.

If you compare the visual viscosity of 10w 40 motor oil to 80w transmission fluid, you will see the 80w is actually a thinner viscosity.

In my opinion, the thinner fluid works better with regard to getting between the friction plates and keeping the clutch  cooler.

Others will have differing opinions, but thats mine.

Edited by nesc103y

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As I said I replaced the Steel plates, those are old ones. Pressure plate is worn a bit, but not even near enought to replace. Your suggested oil is better I'm sure, but I rly think this is not the problem. I have not checked oil holes, Will do that!

Since the plates were quite burnt, is there a possibility that there is something burnt behind the basket and causing this?

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I would change to a different oil, IMO. Honda HP trans oil in the red bottle is fine.

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All good info.

I would add that in fact the pressure plate is completely worn out and has to be slipping under full power, the inner hub isn't much better.

Since it looks like the clutch has seen some use, it could be a the clutch collar and bearing. It can intermittently drag when it goes bad, but usually you can here it more than a "tsip" but it's not real loud. It usually does this after the bike has been up to temp.

Also, since you've had the inner hub out, what did you torque the inner hub nut to?

A slightly less than spec torque will allow easier starting, even in gear. It reduces friction between the inner hub, pressure plate and washer that separates them. There is the lock washer to make sure the nut will not loosen and I have done this for 22 years and 1000+ hours with no issues.

I see what looks like aluminum shavings on the lifter arm bearing asm. and inside the inner hub?

Jason

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as a couple people already state, that pressure plate is looking bad. is the outer fiber teeth riding on the edge of it yet ?

 

I don't like the looks of the inner hub surface either, the surface the innermost fiber rides on. It's discolored and/or groved considerably. And as stated earlier by some, there is crud or metal shavings of some sort floating around in there .. at least it appears so, very visible in some photos.

 

Oil...  10w40 oil is NOT your problem. I assure you. ;)

Edited by MELK-MAN
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My bike use to make the sound your describing until in switched to Belray gear saver 80 weight and rode it awhile and let it cool down and tried it again at idle - no noise and it had more pull out of the corners and acceleration . Before when it was making the noise I could pull the clutch in and out and the noise would change or go away . Just a thought but the Gear saver was recommended to me by a Honda race team and shop from Cali called AS Racing - they recently ran there bikes in the Reno to Vegas race . They use the same trans oil and my problems were solved . It's worth a shot !

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Seems like I really have to take her apart again, because there's so many great info. Thanks guys! Sad thing is that my left arm is not working really well (had a crash), so I don't know how I can do it with almost one hand :D.
I also add that,few times it has started dragging when I start it after having a pause for 10 minutes,I think it was fine when I stopped. Anyway last time when it started dragging, then the drag was not constant, one second it was pulling hard, and the next second it was pulling lightly, then it would pull hard longer etc.... And it does not do any funny sound when it drags. 
Lots of good info, and few things I haven't checked yet, but none of the suggestions don't seem to cause random plate touching. Maybe it is just burnt friction plates? Since changing steel ones that were not warped helped quite a bit, maybe after changing whole set, it is all good, but I don't see any logic in there also. And dragging going away after giving as much as just a little bit throttle and coming back when rpm drops is also I don't understand- or maybe it sounds like a bearing or collar.

All good info.

I would add that in fact the pressure plate is completely worn out and has to be slipping under full power, the inner hub isn't much better.
Since it looks like the clutch has seen some use, it could be a the clutch collar and bearing. It can intermittently drag when it goes bad, but usually you can here it more than a "tsip" but it's not real loud. It usually does this after the bike has been up to temp.

Also, since you've had the inner hub out, what did you torque the inner hub nut to?
A slightly less than spec torque will allow easier starting, even in gear. It reduces friction between the inner hub, pressure plate and washer that separates them. There is the lock washer to make sure the nut will not loosen and I have done this for 22 years and 1000+ hours with no issues.

I see what looks like aluminum shavings on the lifter arm bearing asm. and inside the inner hub?

Jason

I have not taken the inner hub out, so no idea about the torque, but I´ll do that soon if my hand gets better. Other questions are answered with next quote.

 

as a couple people already state, that pressure plate is looking bad. is the outer fiber teeth riding on the edge of it yet ?

 

I don't like the looks of the inner hub surface either, the surface the innermost fiber rides on. It's discolored and/or groved considerably. And as stated earlier by some, there is crud or metal shavings of some sort floating around in there .. at least it appears so, very visible in some photos.

 

Oil...  10w40 oil is NOT your problem. I assure you. ;)

Pressure plate looks bad on the picture, but if I touch it with my hand and look closely, the groove is very small, and fiber teeth are far away from touching. My previous bike had a lot more wear, and had absolutely no problem. So I'd like to think pressure plate is still worthy. Inner hub is  probably discolored by the heat, it is not worn at all, I must really open it up again to look for aluminium shaving, but I haven´t found any when changing oil, so I'm sure it must be the surface of hub. And there was no loose objects when I opened it up.

My bike use to make the sound your describing until in switched to Belray gear saver 80 weight and rode it awhile and let it cool down and tried it again at idle - no noise and it had more pull out of the corners and acceleration . Before when it was making the noise I could pull the clutch in and out and the noise would change or go away . Just a thought but the Gear saver was recommended to me by a Honda race team and shop from Cali called AS Racing - they recently ran there bikes in the Reno to Vegas race . They use the same trans oil and my problems were solved . It's worth a shot !

 

 

I would change to a different oil, IMO. Honda HP trans oil in the red bottle is fine.

Okey guys since you 2 really think and have had great success with changing to different oil, I give it a try next oil change. Can get my hands on Lucas SAE 80w85 or Maxima 80w or 85w

Edited by sandman1111

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When you removed the judder springs did you replace the bottom friction plate with a regular friction plate?

 

The pressure plate in the pic is smoked. I'd replace it.

 

If your having problems get everything right, the way its supposed to be. Chances are your problem will go away.

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When you removed the judder springs did you replace the bottom friction plate with a regular friction plate?

 

The pressure plate in the pic is smoked. I'd replace it.

 

If your having problems get everything right, the way its supposed to be. Chances are your problem will go away.

Ye it is regular friction plate. Since everyone says that my pressure plate is worn out, I guess I´ll change it.

I opened the clutch again. Did not get the hub and basket out cause it is really hard to do it with one hand and I don´t have the tools needed atm. Anyway the hub is actually not discolored, it is some kind of a black filth. Probably from friction plates.

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.. and again, about the oil. Have you done a search on "what oil to use".. do you realize how many different good oils there are out there? and do you see the dozens of opinions on oil there are ? no way, no how is 80wt going to fix your problem. People use every kind and wt of oil under the sun with good success. you have a mechanical issue, not an oil issue. I have never actually heard of an oil with moly additives causing a clutch to slip, but it is stated in every wet clutch owners manual to not use an oil with moly as it could slip. So best to stay away form oils with "energy conserving" in the round label.

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.. and again, about the oil. Have you done a search on "what oil to use".. do you realize how many different good oils there are out there? and do you see the dozens of opinions on oil there are ? no way, no how is 80wt going to fix your problem. People use every kind and wt of oil under the sun with good success. you have a mechanical issue, not an oil issue. I have never actually heard of an oil with moly additives causing a clutch to slip, but it is stated in every wet clutch owners manual to not use an oil with moly as it could slip. So best to stay away form oils with "energy conserving" in the round label.

 

My point wasn't that 80w was going to fix the problem. More so that it could delay it and provide more service life.

Clutches wear out. So at some point no mater what is used, the clutch will require replacement.

And I agree the problem with the OP is mechanical, which is why I recommended replacing the worn parts. Which in this case there appears to be many.

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Now I´m thinking of ordering new Wiseco hub, springs, pressure plate, friction plates. Can get them for 420 USD plus shipping. Or maybe anyone has a better place where I can get good quality stuff?

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I have had very good experiences with the Barnett basket in the CR500 bikes I run. The basket with the stainless steel liners that the frictions ride against. Never tried one on a 450 but I assume they make one for the bike?

Edited by Eddie8v

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I have had very good experiences with the Barnett basket in the CR500 bikes I run. The basket with the stainless steel liners that the frictions ride against. Never tried one on a 450 but I assume they make one for the bike?

They do make basket and pressure plate, but I cant find a good seller for anything else then Wiseco. Also right now I´ll use the old basket, because this is the only part that is not worn out. Wiseco stuff seems to be cheapest on ebay and has got lifetime warranty. If anyone has got a place where I can get quality stuff for cheaper I´m very interested.

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