Whats the probability of Combustion engines in the future?

[artracing]

Don't forgot Mr. Fusion

That's the future

[icaHONDA]

Electric vehicles that run soley on batteries have no future. The technology for batteries is already at its most advanced stage with lithium-ion batteries and no 'better' battery can be made. The only other elements that could work better would be Helium or hydrogen, which can not be developed into a batter of any sort.

[adam728]

Not to support electric vehicles or anything but with the thermal efficiency of a typical internal combustion engine running the Otto cycle being around 27% peak (however under normal driving conditions it's probably closer to 15%) a steam power plant running a basic superheat (Carnot) cycle is also 27% but can maintain that efficiency. Many modern plants are super critical plants and run reheat cycles to bring their thermal efficiencies up to 35%. Gas turbines (Brayton cycle) are the worst with even high pressure ratio turbines barely approaching 20% but when combined with a waste heat boiler (combined cycle) efficiencies of upwards of 40% are possible. Slow speed diesel engines with waste heat recovery can approach 45% thermal efficiency but there are emissions issues due to high peak combustion temperatures. Generating electricity from fuel is more efficient than burning fuel in an internal combustion engine to turn a wheel but... what about the transformer losses, transmission losses, and charging losses? Well these are all fairly small. The electric motor itself is very efficient generally on the range of 75-90% of what goes in comes out as rotating power. The efficiency of a gas engine vs. generating electricity to charge a battery to run a motor seems to be a bit of a wash with neither case coming out ahead. The advantage is that the power plant can generate the power much more cleanly. Just remember, carbon dioxide (the devil to environmentalists) from a gas engine gets turned into biomass through photosynthesis. Nickel from batteries poisons the earth.

Your numbers sound a bit dated. 20 years ago upper 20's were about the best automotive was seeing. There are cars today close to 35% efficient. HCCI is on track to give that a big boost to the mid or even upper 40's. Lots of hurdles though.

[SDet]

Electric vehicles that run soley on batteries have no future. The technology for batteries is already at its most advanced stage with lithium-ion batteries and no 'better' battery can be made. The only other elements that could work better would be Helium or hydrogen, which can not be developed into a batter of any sort.

You were saying?

http://www.nanomagazine.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&id=1160:carbon-nanotube-technology-produces-up-to-tenfold-increase-in-lithium-ion-battery-power

[Dirt Hokie]

Batteries are very far away from being practical, and even farther away from being competitive with gasoline.  Right now batteries just don't give you the freedom that gas does.  They compare more to public transit then a personal vehicle. 

[grayracer513]

 

The technology for batteries is already at its most advanced stage with lithium-ion batteries and no 'better' battery can be made.

 

 

That is what "they" said when they invented NiCads, and NiMH, and lithium batteries, when they first showed up.  Then "they" said it again when the electrochemistry was shifted to lithium/iron phosphate, and again when the batteries were doped with zirconium, and again when lithium polymers came out.  It's one of the silliest things I've ever heard. 

 

OTOH, I don't see pure battery cars being any kind of answer, either, but I never expected the performance they currently produce, either.

[icaHONDA]

You were saying?

http://www.nanomagazine.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&id=1160:carbon-nanotube-technology-produces-up-to-tenfold-increase-in-lithium-ion-battery-power

 

Batteries can be improved but only to a certain point. Improve a chair to much and it is no longer a chair. I just meant that as far as elemental composition goes, lithium batteries are the best and last option.

 

Really cool article though! Nice find. Theres so much potential in carbon nanotube technology.

[SDet]

Batteries can be improved but only to a certain point. Improve a chair to much and it is no longer a chair. I just meant that as far as elemental composition goes, lithium batteries are the best and last option.

 

Really cool article though! Nice find. Theres so much potential in carbon nanotube technology.

There's still a lot going on with batteries, lithium may be the best option, but the best way to construct a battery is still to be decided. 

[mastera210]

When a battery has the energy density of gas and can be filled and drained just as fast, and lasts the life of the bike or is cheap to replace....

 

If the battery dream ever comes true, I see electric motors taking over for most power sports.  They are simple and can be made robust and could be tunable with electronic controllers.  I can see two wheel drive electric bikes with the motors built into the hubs, seems a easy to engineer system.  Battery designers need to step up their game.  

 

gas works pretty dam good, and we keep finding more and more oil.

 

I would try a e bike if it compared to a real dirt bike, but they just don't yet. 

Well a elec bike won the last Pike Peak race!

[BryanK]

Well a elec bike won the last Pike Peak race!

 

Very interesting... why did this happen? Did batteries somehow become more efficient? Higher energy density?

Nope.

 

It wasn't entirely due to better electric motorcycles it was due to the characteristics of the standard gas engine.

Gas engines loose power at higher altitudes, electric vehicles don't.

 

A very unique situation. Maybe next year someone will turbocharge a Multistrada and take the title again.

[grayracer513]

 

Gas engines loose power at higher altitudes, electric vehicles don't.

 

 

Not all of them.  EFI and a turbo will cure the problem.

[mastera210]

Very interesting... why did this happen? Did batteries somehow become more efficient? Higher energy density?

Nope.

 

It wasn't entirely due to better electric motorcycles it was due to the characteristics of the standard gas engine.

Gas engines loose power at higher altitudes, electric vehicles don't.

 

A very unique situation. Maybe next year someone will turbocharge a Multistrada and take the title again.

His Electric bike was 500 lbs 200+ hp! His time was 10 mins The fastest gas bike was a Duc MS at 10 min 21 sec

[mastera210]

Here is pic

[mastera210]

And here is info on the production version of bike. 125hp, 0-100 3 sec, 0-166 10 sec (top speed), range 100 to 150 miles, Price 38,888 dollars!

 

And on topic read about new tech for batterys cant remember all the hitech stuff but they have protype battery that use some kind of nano tech that can up the power output of lit-ion based batterys by 10X! So its COMMING! But will be LONG time Before the avg Joe can afford it!

[mastera210]

Oh forgot there hopped up one did 215 mph!!!

[Dirt Hokie]

what was the price comparison between the electric vs gas bikes at pikes peak?

what was the recharge time?

there will always be specific conditions where a certain technology will win.

I would like to see a e-bike win the Darkar or Baja 1000, that's would mean something.

or a e-car win a stock car race.

There has never been a questions of performance with the motors, its a questions of range, recharge time and cost

[mastera210]

what was the price comparison between the electric vs gas bikes at pikes peak?

what was the recharge time?

there will always be specific conditions where a certain technology will win.

I would like to see a e-bike win the Darkar or Baja 1000, that's would mean something.

or a e-car win a stock car race.

There has never been a questions of performance with the motors, its a questions of range, recharge time and cost

Yes the e-bike costs a LOT more as with any new tech. Could you afford a 60in flat panel TV 10 years ago? Or in 1980 they made the first 1GB drive cost 100,000 dollars!

 

Recharge time? Mmmm 10min race dont really think they was worried about that!

But on prodution model its 2hrs

 

Can a E-Bike win Dakar? Not right now but lets look at that a Dakar bike needs 200 mile range. The production E-Bike has 100 to 150 mile range. Not that far off and I read about new prototype battery that are 10X more powerfull than what they have now. So If they only up them 2X that would do it. Dont you think they could swap battery pack in the same time it takes to gas up a bike?

 

Did you know Cadillac has a prototype car that drives itself? Sure its no KITT we are getting closer!

 

My point is in todays world Never say Never!

[Dirt Hokie]

Something that would help range of a off road bike is regenerative suspension, it could tie into the electronically controllable suspension that already exists. Every bump and jump could send power back to the battery, along with braking, and it could all be computer controlled and adjustable on the fly. Plus with a smart tire material that produces current when its mechanically flexed, the tires could produce a little power also.

[BryanK]

Yes the e-bike costs a LOT more as with any new tech. Could you afford a 60in flat panel TV 10 years ago? Or in 1980 they made the first 1GB drive cost 100,000 dollars!

 

 

 

 

Don't make the mistake a lot people make comparing the price/performance progression of electronics to other technologies. You cannot compare them.

 

Usually the physics gets in the way on more mature tech like electric motors, heat engines and batteries. We are just starting to hit the physical limits of current electronics in silicon.

[mastera210]

Don't make the mistake a lot people make comparing the price/performance progression of electronics to other technologies. You cannot compare them.

 

Usually the physics gets in the way on more mature tech like electric motors, heat engines and batteries. We are just starting to hit the physical limits of current electronics in silicon.

Yes but what I read about the new prototype batterys being 10X more powerfull? Thatis the problem now not motors. I have a Antigavity battery that can start my XR650L and is 13oz and you can put it in your POCKET! 5 years ago you would say NO WAY!