kickstarter gear swap XR200

[Whozaa]

My '83 XR200 has broken kickstarter gears, all three. I was originally going to replace them with exact replacements, but then I found out that the later years ('87 and up) have stronger gears. I bought a set and am trying to fit them into the stock case. The ones for the kick shaft and output shaft seem to fit in the cases ok. But the one for the input shaft is keeping the case from closing up. Has anyone done this swap before? Any ideas?

 

I've searched but I haven't found anything directly answering, so any help would be appreciated!

[Old School Al]

? Yep............compare the thickness of your old and your new K/S drive gears.  The right trans main shaft bearing is thinner to allow for the extra width of the new gear on the later engines.  I've done this mod, but I'm a little foggy on exact details .......... somewhere  I have a complete list of what needs to be changed.  For some reason I was thinking a trans gear had to be changed also.......not sure though?  You've already opened up (ground out) the right center case for the K/S pinion gear to fit I assume?

 

Old School Al

Edited December 28, 2013 by Old School Al

[Whozaa]

That's interesting about the different bearings. I've compared my year fiche with a newer one and although the bearing part numbers are different, the description suggests that they are both 6006 type. I was thinking the bearing bore in the case itself might be deeper in the newer ones. Maybe if I bought that newer bearing everything would fit properly?

 

I haven't clearanced the case for the kicker pinion gear yet, but I will be sure to.

 

The input shaft is the one that is giving me trouble. I'm tempted to machine down the starter gear that fits into the back of the clutch basket as its about 1/16" taller than the "correct" one. That would let me get the cases closed.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Whozaa

[Whozaa]

I think you're right about the bearing thicknesses. The fiche from both years describe it as a 6006 bearing, but CMSNL shows the spec as 30x55x11 which is 2mm thinner than a standard 6006. That's some kind of sneakiness right there on Honda's behalf!

Edited December 28, 2013 by Whozaa

[Old School Al]

If you narrow the gear, you're heading back towards where you started..........better to change the bearing like Honda did. ?

 

Old School Al

[Old School Al]

I think you're right about the bearing thicknesses. The fiche from both years describe it as a 6006 bearing, but CMSNL shows the spec as 30x55x11 which is 2mm thinner than a standard 6006. That's some kind of sneakiness right there on Honda's behalf!

 

Yep.  Only thing I see "sneaky" is they used a narrower bearing to "sneak in" a wider heavier gear! ?   Pretty good idea in my way of thinking....................minimal parts to change! ?

 

Old School Al

Edited December 28, 2013 by Old School Al

[Old School Al]

I'm still trying to remember if they changed the gear right under the K/S idler gear on the C/S to accommodate a wider K/S idler gear?..............

 

Old School Al

[Chuck.]

OSA:

If you are referring to the 1st speed CS gear it did have a part number change but the part fiche says replaces earlier gears, so most likely compatable. 

 

My problem is I have never needed to do a physical comparison between the transmissions of different years, or tried to mix early/late starter gears/cases,  but this compatability issue has come up before on TT. 

I encountered Honda's special bearing size while buying replacement bearings for my 218 build in 2010 and solved it by buying a 16006 standard metric bearing rather than the Honda bearing. The 86- brg is a 6006 at 13mm wide, 87+  Honda brg (91005-965-681) is 11mm wide,  a Standard Metric 16006 brg is 9mm wide. Its dynamic and static max load rating is about 70% and 65% respectively of the 6006 brg so should be OK for this low speed application, it has held up well to the 218 torque for the last four years. 

 

I don't have anything on the early case closure issue using later gears but I recollect posts on TT that involved grinding clearance in the case for the starter gears, I just don't remember the details.  

 

For what it is worth my notes show:

Cases changed in 86, 88, & 94.

Starter gears and the main shaft right bearing changed in 87.

That would indicate the issue is the bearing.  If your bearing is proud of the case than going to a thinner bearing may fix that  interferance point, but there may be others because of the case changes in 86.

 

You can use grease, or Prussian Blue, to ID contact points. Just remember that the cases must close by hand, don't use the bolts to pull them together.

 

So if you get it sorted out please post your fixes.

[Whozaa]

I've ordered one of the 11mm wide 91005-965-681 bearings to install in place of the "normal" 6006. I've test fit both the output shaft and kickstart shaft and the case closes nicely with them in place. It's only when I try to fit the input shaft that the case won't close up. There's a gap of about 2mm which suggests that the thinner bearing will do the trick.

 

I've clearanced the case around the larger kickstarter gear. It was rubbing in a couple different spots but some careful dremeling took care of that.

 

I'll be sure to keep track of all the details and post them all up as I go. I'll also try to get a pic of my clearanced case to show you all where the gear was rubbing.

[teamrude]

that would be excellent. parts list and pics will make you a hero

[Old School Al]

Well I finally found the list of parts that we (OSJ and I) changed to install the late style H/D K/S gears in a 82 and 83 XR200R which came with the lighter duty K/S gears. ?

 

 

 

1st gear C/S .......... ..23420-KTO-770  part #3  (dished to accept wider K/S gear)

 

K/S gear M/S.............23520-965-680   part#17  (HD K/S drive gear)

 

K/S gear C/S.............23531-KTO-770  part #18  (H/D K/S idler gear)

 

K/S gear spindle.......28211-KTO-770  part#2   (H/D K/S pinion gear)

 

Right bearing M/S.....91005-965-681   part#32   (narrower to accept wider K/S gear)

 

Spring K/S ratchet....28253-KA2-000   part #5  (longer......more ratchet engagement pressure))

 

K/S Lever asemb......28300-KT0-670  (for 8mm bolt instead of 6mm)

 

K/S lever 8mm bolt....96300-08025-07  (8mm bolt for above)

 

K/S spring seat........28284-KG1-000  part#6  Note:  Not sure on this part as we replaced only one of them. Could have just been to replace a damaged one.......???

 

 

 

Note 1:  81 - 83 and 86 XR200R have early light/duty  K/S gears ........... 87 - 02 have later heavy duty K/S gears. (I tend to think the 79 - 84 XR/XL185/200 twin shocks with the early lighter gears could be converted also.......but I haven't done the hands on to confirm "for sure".)

 

Note 2:  81 - 83 XR200R have short K/S ratchet spring 21.5mm  ......... 86 - 02 have the  27mm spring (long).

 

Note 3:  81 - 83 used a K/S spindle and lever assembly with a 6mm bolt ...........86 - 02 used a 8mm bolt.

 

Note 4: The late K/S spindle has a larger groove to accept the later K/S leaver assembly that uses the larger 8mm bolt.  The early K/S spindle with the smaller groove for the 6mm bolt can easily be ground larger when converting to the later K/S lever assembly using the larger 8mm bolt.

 

Note 5:  The right center engine case has to be relieved (ground/hogged out) to get clearance for larger dia. H/D K/S spindle pinion gear.  "Make sure" you get proper clearance...........or the gear will try to do it itself and contaminate the engine oil. ?

 

Note 6:  The parts diagrams below of the K/S assembly and the transmission assembly are for a 2002 XR200R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've got a few other notes I'm trying to figure out....................been 10 years or better and things are a tad bit foggy! ?

 

Old School Al

Edited December 30, 2013 by Old School Al

[Chuck.]

Good stuff and lots of details so time for some picture, here are two part fich pics. 

Here is a 90 kick start spindle: The Ratchet Spring is #5

 

And a 90 Transmission: The kicker gears are #17 & #18, the bearing is #34, #3 is the CS 1st speed gear.

 

 

 

 

 

[Old School Al]

Finally got er did on the parts diagrams ........... thought it would be best to have all on the same post.  Been busy on that there reading comprehension.......... ?

 

Old School Al 

[Chuck.]

You put a lot of good information in post #11. Have you considered adding a link to it in the XR Modification Guide to help others find it? Otherwise it could get lost like the old posts on this subject. 

 

FYI My browser won't open the two pics you posted.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Chuck.

[Whozaa]

Some pics for your enjoyment.  ?

 

 

 

First, the '83 kickstarter assembly on the left and the '02 on the right.

 

Now, just the shafts. They seem to be identical, save for a deeper lever bolt groove on the '02 to fit an 8mm bolt. I don't have the later 8mm kick lever so I've swapped all the bits from the '02 shaft over to the '83. Not ideal, but at least I get to use the lever I have with the bigger gear and stiffer ratchet spring.

These next three show different angles of the kick gear area that I clearanced out. I used a Dremel loaded with a cutoff wheel.

This one shows the '02 kick assembly installed in the case half.

This shows the transmission gear alignment. The trans gears themselves are from the original '83. The starter related gears are from a '90. The trans gears themselves lined up ok, but the two starter gears don't quite line up. I didn't swap out the CS 1st speed gear as I didn't have one. In spite of this, the case buttoned up evenly and there was no binding evident.

A pic of everything installed in the left case half.

This is comparing a "standard" 13mm wide 6006 bearing (on right) with the "special" 11mm wide Honda bearing. The cases would not close up until I swapped for the narrower bearing.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Whozaa

[Chuck.]

Good job and thanks for the pics, they will help others with similar problems.

 

Two suggestions for others in a similar situation:

Just print out the part fiche for the two years and compare part numbers.

Go to the sticky XR200 Mods and check out threads on tranny, cases,  case bearings, and starter gears.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Chuck.

[teamrude]

THANK YOU GUYS. This will be my next upgrade on my hot 218. I have learned over the years(40+) proper ways to start thumpers. I have made marginal setups last for years BUT let one friend take a test ride and cases come apart. Funny thing is they are never there when working on it. LOL

[Old School Al]

Good job and thanks for the pics, they will help others with similar problems.

 

Two suggestions for others in a similar situation:

Just print out the part fiche for the two years and compare part numbers.

Go to the sticky XR200 Mods and check out threads on tranny, cases,  case bearings, and starter gears.

 

 

 

 

Chuck, what similar problems are you talking about that would benefit from all this additional part # research you speak of beyond what's been covered on this thread................? 

 

What would benefit, is gear width and teeth count between early and late gears, and maybe a few other little details from hands on with the parts...........not part #'s. ?

 

Old School Al

Edited January 11, 2014 by Old School Al

[Old School Al]

Whozaa,

 

I tend to wonder that even though you can get the cases together, the H/D K/S idler gear may be contacting first gear C/S where it shouldn't...........not on the intended thrust surface.

 

Also is interesting the area you relieved on the case is quite a bit different and less then what was required on the cases we did.

 

Old School Al

[Chuck.]

Chuck, what similar problems are you talking about that would benefit from all this additional part # research you speak of beyond what's been covered on this thread................? 

 

What would benefit, is gear width and teeth count between early and late gears, and maybe a few other little details from hands on with the parts...........not part #'s. ?

 

Old School Al

Good points.

The tooth counts are in the part fiche, and I've posted starter gear tooth counts on several threads, and didn't think it necessary.  But if you think it would add to the discussion please post the info.

 

IMHO the part fiche and Shop Service Manuals are guides to help us learn things.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Chuck.