Bar Rotation and Lever Positioning

[Harvo]

I want to move my bars forward for (what I think) would be a better riding position.  I read some posts by 2Ply that talked about the advantages.  What I'd like to know is that if rotating the bars forward (increasing the amount of reach to the grips) has any effect on handling other than rider position.  Will the front end stick corners better or will it wash out more?  I ride in the woods and in my mind it would seem to help with log crossings, rut riding and the sort. But I don't know.

 

Also, to be completely comfortable covering and using the levers while standing, mine need to be turned way downward.  So much that the levers are below my bark busters.  I can control the bars much better that way and get less accidental throttle when I'm trying to do a lot of brake and clutch work like on steep downhills with rocks.

 

If you have levers positioned pretty low, would you mind posting a pic so I can compare it with mine.  Not sure if this is a case of "do what feels right" or "getting comfortable with bad form"

[andrzej]

2Ply was likely talking about trials bikes when rotating bars forward.  Works on a trials bike....but not so good on an Enduro.  Since you posted on the Off-Road section, I'm assuming you're not on a trials bike. On an Enduro bike, it tends to move your frame and elbows to a less optimal position.

 

As for having your levers down that low.....every school/instructor/racer I've interacted with says not to do that.  Best to be just a tad below horizontal.

 

That way you can reach the levers when sitting or standing.  And offroad, often you sit to save energy on a long race/ride.

 

I started with mine down approaching 45 degrees, but have brought them up to almost horizontal.  I find, once you get used to it, that you have better all round control with them in that position.

 

So I think it's that you've "gotten comfortable with bad form" with respect to your levers!

[Harvo]

That is what I thought about the bars too, but the new guys I have been riding with race off-road and their bars are vertical. Mine are swept Back some so moving them forward to me would mean making them vertical... Not really forward of that.

When I asked why, they said they have more room to move while standing, and it makes it easier to lift the bars and rotate the bike forward like when hopping up ledges.

I don't really know if they know what they are talking about yet since I just started riding with them, so I thought I would bring it here.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Harvo

[MELK-MAN]

every so often an article is put out about bar position and control position.. Every time, it's written that the rise of the bar should be in a neutral position (close to the same angle as the forks). I have commented on woods riding people i encounter all the time when i see bars rolled way forward.. they say "it' helps keep my elbows up".. LOL.. i have seen them and others ride, and they drop elbows just as much as those with bars in the correct and more neutral position. When i try to give them advice about this, they look at me like i have a 3rd eye popping out of my forehead !

 

case in point, i just got this months Dirt Rider Magazine , low and behold, an article on setting up controls ! nearly word for word what i posted above. Bars should be in a neutral position. I have been paying attention to not only some of the top harescramble guys, but looking down the line when watching monster energy supercross. Typically, you see nice neutral bars. no crazy rolled forward bars.

 

Rolling the bars forward does a couple things i believe are bad (aside from the pros writing the articles saying it's bad, and the pros that run neutral positon for some reason) .. it changes the offset of where the designers intended the hands and pivot point of the triple clamps to be. It also gets you TOO far over the front tire with your hands, giving it that odd shopping cart wheel feel. Try riding our bmx bike fast with the bars rolled about 45deg forward from neutral.. let us know how that goes for ya ? Also, your wrists are not in a natural position. Close your eyes, and put your hands out in front of you in a relaxed position. they are at a slight DOWNWARD angle from inside to out.. when you roll the bars to far forward, the ENDS OF THE GRIPS ARE HIGHER THAN THE INSIDE of the grips. Bad.

 

they also went on to say that having levers too far down is bad, as well as covering with all the fingers..

 

 

Here' s a shot i found of Kurt Caselli's bike.. i think we would all agree he knew a thing or two about how a bike should be set up. I could post dozens of photos of bars in a nice neutral position.. i'm sure that there will be the occasional rider that will have the bars rotated slightly forward of neutral to the forks, but it's rare.. for PRO riders. I have ZERO IDEA why the weekend warrior types and even some racers i know move em forward. And being tall has nothing to do with it.. I am getting the pic of a couple 6'+ AA offroad racers with totally neutral bar positions soon.. I'm on a mission about this to spread the word that neutral bars are GOOD.

 

Edited January 29, 2014 by MELK-MAN

[michigan400]

Good info! I have come full circle on this myself. I used to want the bars way up and forward so standing was easier. I have since removed all risers from both bikes and with the exception of my XR400, gone back to stock fore and aft bar position and was in shock at the improvement. I had no idea I was making the handling and stability worse by doing that. Good to see others agree. Ditch the ape hangers and leave them for the HD riders so they can look awesome!

Edited January 29, 2014 by michigan400

[MELK-MAN]

Good info! I have come full circle on this myself. I used to want the bars way up and forward so standing was easier. I have since removed all risers from both bikes and with the exception of my XR400, gone back to stock fore and aft bar position and was in shock at the improvement. I had no idea I was making the handling and stability worse by doing that. Good to see others agree. Ditch the ape hangers and leave them for the HD riders so they can look awesome!

 

i suppose risers would be one thing, as you could still keep a neutral angle of the bars themselves. High bar clamps would not change the offset very much, even though they are in line with the steering head angle. But as you discovered, rolling the bars way forward totally changes how a bike will handle, the angle your wrists are at compared to what the bar design intends, etc.. ?

[Harvo]

I was watching some you tube last night. There is an enduring training series that is really good. There is a host that gets pro riders to demonstrate technique. I can't remember the name.... Any way, there is a video on bar position and another on lever position. On levers, he said pretty much the same as you. On bars, He said completely neutral or slightly forward "for better control over the rough stuff".

Anyway... It's a really good video series. I'll post the name when I find it.

That was supposed to read "enduro" ... dang phone.

[RickP]

I was watching some you tube last night. There is an enduring training series that is really good. There is a host that gets pro riders to demonstrate technique. I can't remember the name.... Any way, there is a video on bar position and another on lever position. On levers, he said pretty much the same as you. On bars, He said completely neutral or slightly forward "for better control over the rough stuff".

Anyway... It's a really good video series. I'll post the name when I find it.

That was supposed to read "enduro" ... dang phone.

Off Road Fanatics

[Wallander]

Bar ends should be inline with the forks, and not point down - I follow that rule for technical enduro. If the bar ends are more back, you loose some quick handling but gain some stability. It's always a compromise, choose where and how you ride.

[Kenpo1]

I used to roll my bars forward and use bar risers. I rode that way for probably two season. I did it because I read on here and was told  that for a tall guy (I'm 6'2") it would make standing easier and give me more room in the cockpit.

 

Then, I read a thread here explaining the handling woes that can cause, and all about how pro riders run their bars in line with the forks. I also read about how regular bar risers move the bars up, and in so doing move the bars closer to you, causing you to hang off the back of the bike more instead of over the front in the attack position.

 

So, I decided to go to a nuetral position with no risers. It's a little less comfortable standing (most notably standing for long periods on the long whooped out stuff in the desert) but the handling and cornering was noticably better. I've now gotten used to to standing with the bars nuetral sans risers and it's no longer a problem.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Kenpo1

[jqueen]

My bars are usually in a neutral position - I loosen them and rotate until it feels right, and it's usually pretty close to the same angle as the forks (if the wrist angle is wrong but the distance/height is correct, you can get bars with different sweep, etc)

 

However, my levers are rotated down quite a bit.  I find that it hurts my wrist to have them close to level. 

 

For me, part of that is that I have a long torso with short arms and legs.  That means I am leaning forward to reach the bars, which makes my arms point more down than most people.  Basically, I have the controls set where I can extend my fingers straight out in line with my arms, and they rest on the levers.

 

If I install risers, the levers don't have to be as far down, but cheap risers tend to move the bars back as well, and I don't like the way that makes the bike handle.

[mrfermec]

Dude I like my bars forward and levers down I ride mostly Mx but still trail riding or wherever I feel like I have great control and handling much more so than when I had them pulled back but no one can tell you where to put them everyone is different put them where they are comfortable for you in you attack position and levers too I hate the way it feels with the levers out I can't ride like that. Take a couple wrenches or sockets with u and experiment. Also depends on your bars I like taller wider bars so I'm usually comfortable with cr high bends but I'm now running Henry/reed bend pro tapers. Might go to a bike shop and feel out some different bends.

Edited January 30, 2014 by mrfermec

[MELK-MAN]

Dude I like my bars forward and levers down I ride mostly Mx but still trail riding or wherever I feel like I have great control and handling much more so than when I had them pulled back but no one can tell you where to put them everyone is different put them where they are comfortable for you in you attack position and levers too I hate the way it feels with the levers out I can't ride like that. Take a couple wrenches or sockets with u and experiment. Also depends on your bars I like taller wider bars so I'm usually comfortable with cr high bends but I'm now running Henry/reed bend pro tapers. Might go to a bike shop and feel out some different bends.

 

no offense man, but every article published that i have seen in 30+ years of reading and riding and racing, have never promoted rolling the bars forward of a neutral position. Now if you are saying you know more than the pro riders and editors compiling this data, well.. ok.. to each his own. But having the levers way down and bars rotated forward thinking that will help your riding position is not the general consensus among those that seem to be "in the know".. ya know ? Not gonna argue the point any further, but it just blows my mind how anyone thinks the rise of the bar, well forward of parallel to the forks, is anything but uncomfortable and making the bike more ill-handling that it would be otherwise. ?

 

but in the end, it is totally up to the rider about what works for them.. happy riding !

Edited January 31, 2014 by MELK-MAN

[mrfermec]

no offense man, but every article published that i have seen in 30+ years of reading and riding and racing, have never promoted rolling the bars forward of a neutral position. Now if you are saying you know more than the pro riders and editors compiling this data, well.. ok.. to each his own. But having the levers way down and bars rotated forward thinking that will help your riding position is not the general consensus among those that seem to be "in the know".. ya know ? Not gonna argue the point any further, but it just blows my mind how anyone thinks the rise of the bar, well forward of parallel to the forks, is anything but uncomfortable and making the bike more ill-handling that it would be otherwise. ?

but in the end, it is totally up to the rider about what works for them.. happy riding !

funny how your not Gona argue anymore gotta get the last word in huh, well obviously your in the "know" and I don't know sh*% how ever if I put my bars parallel with my fork my bars ends would be hitting me in the thigh and waist and I feel like I'm falling off the back of th bike, however when I was describing bars forward I wasn't meaning Mexican low rider bicycle forward just actually a bit forward from your " every pro riders" position and as for leavers down I was not meaning verticals or anywhere near it even but in fact just lower that strait out because I like to reach out with my fingers and not reach up. I'm also not a short guy so that's why I like what I like And your so called standard for everyone " in the know" is redic if that was the case then there's only one setting for everyone? then why is there any reason to modify or change anything and all I was telling the guy try a couple different things to see what he likes. Thanks for setting me strait milkmanfunny tho after all your tell it how it is then you give your disclaimer and say exactly the point I was tryn to get across to him and that is it's all up to the rider. .|.. Edited January 31, 2014 by mrfermec

[motovita]

Bar position does not change the handling of a motorcycle, changing the riders position on the bike does.

If you run your levers too low it's easier for your wrists to go past the grips and the rider to go over the bars, try it on a stand and you'll see what I mean. Imagine running into a big log with your fingers on the levers in both positions, you are covering your levers aren't you.

Every rider is different and should experiment and use what works best for them, but working from other riders experience can save you some bruising.

I run my bars far enough forward that they feel awkward when I'm seated, since if I'm sitting I'm just cruising and don't need good control, but they are in the optimum position for standing and dealing with the terrain.

In this photo you can see that having my bars rotated further back would be very awkward. You can also see from my wrist position that my levers are rotated to keep my wrists behind the grips rather than over them. if my wrists were higher when I rode down the other side of the rock it would be easy for my weight to go forward over the bars.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GtwpwTw74c0/TF4vUjf1PII/AAAAAAAAA-8/2et0ziInSGM/s800/ttr%20010.JPG

You can also see how taller bars would further compromise my position while climbing.

Edited January 31, 2014 by motovita

[MELK-MAN]

📎ttr 012.JPGBar position does not change the handling of a motorcycle, changing the riders position on the bike does.

If you run your levers too low it's easier for your wrists to go past the grips and the rider to go over the bars, try it on a stand and you'll see what I mean. Imagine running into a big log with your fingers on the levers in both positions, you are covering your levers aren't you.

Every rider is different and should experiment and use what works best for them, but working from other riders experience can save you some bruising.

I run my bars far enough forward that they feel awkward when I'm seated, since if I'm sitting I'm just cruising and don't need good control, but they are in the optimum position for standing and dealing with the terrain.

In this photo you can see that having my bars rotated further back would be very awkward. You can also see from my wrist position that my levers are rotated to keep my wrists behind the grips rather than over them. if my wrists were higher when I rode down the other side of the rock it would be easy for my weight to go forward over the bars.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GtwpwTw74c0/TF4vUjf1PII/AAAAAAAAA-8/2et0ziInSGM/s800/ttr%20010.JPG

You can also see how taller bars would further compromise my position while climbing.

 

 

bar position doesn't change the handling ?   take your kids BMX bike and rotate the bars about 30deg forward from where they are now.. then report back. This is an extreme example, but the area your hands are inputting force, changes the original offset . this is why you can buy different offset clamps !

Edited January 31, 2014 by MELK-MAN

[motovita]

bar position doesn't change the handling ?   take your kids BMX bike and rotate the bars about 30deg forward from where they are now.. then report back. This is an extreme example, but the area your hands are inputting force, changes the original offset . this is why you can buy different offset clamps !

You're really quite dense aren't you?

Reread the second half of the sentence you've quoted.

[michigan400]

You seem to be the lightning rod of this thread MELK-MAN! LOL!

[MELK-MAN]

You seem to be the lightning rod of this thread MELK-MAN! LOL!

 

I'm not skeeeered ! ?

[Kenpo1]

📎ttr 012.JPGBar position does not change the handling of a motorcycle, changing the riders position on the bike does.

If you run your levers too low it's easier for your wrists to go past the grips and the rider to go over the bars, try it on a stand and you'll see what I mean. Imagine running into a big log with your fingers on the levers in both positions, you are covering your levers aren't you.

Every rider is different and should experiment and use what works best for them, but working from other riders experience can save you some bruising.

I run my bars far enough forward that they feel awkward when I'm seated, since if I'm sitting I'm just cruising and don't need good control, but they are in the optimum position for standing and dealing with the terrain.

In this photo you can see that having my bars rotated further back would be very awkward. You can also see from my wrist position that my levers are rotated to keep my wrists behind the grips rather than over them. if my wrists were higher when I rode down the other side of the rock it would be easy for my weight to go forward over the bars.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GtwpwTw74c0/TF4vUjf1PII/AAAAAAAAA-8/2et0ziInSGM/s800/ttr%20010.JPG

You can also see how taller bars would further compromise my position while climbing.

 

I can't tell from the picture for sure, but it doesn't look like your bars are forward of the neutral (in line with the forks) position. If they are, it can't be much more than one or two clicks on the bars. Where are you running them? 

 

Your explanation of lever position makes sense. This is a direct quote from Gary Semics Pro Motocross and Off-Road Motorcycle Riding Techniques "The... levers need to be easily accessible to the rider while both sitting and standing. If the levers are too high, they will be difficult to use when standing....If the levers are to low, they will be difficult to use when sitting...the levers should be positioned at the same angle as the rider's arms when sitting in the attack position. When in your standard riding position, your fingers should rest naturally on the levers. When your elbows are positioned correctly (slightly high), the levers will be pivoted forward. Be sure to assume a good body position when setting the levers."

 

On a somewhat related note I thought this article was interesting regarding the need to consistently re-grip between breaking and accelerating. 

 

http://www.dirtrider.com/features/protips/riding/141_0912_pro_secrets_overgrip_regrip_with_gary_semics/