Rear Brake Pedal pivot...

[condershire]

Is it just me, or is there something brain dead with Honda's implementation of the rear brake pedal?  My XR650L (2012) now has 18,200 miles on it, the rear brake does not get significant use.  I periodically remove the rear brake pedal and clean/grease the pivot.

 

This attention has not significantly postponed wear, however...  There is some definite "slop" in the pedal and even better, there is no bearing in the frame which supports the pedal pivot.  Examining the pedal pivot I notice some low spots so I COULD replace the pedal but, of course, there could be significant wear in the frame bushing and given that there is no provision for replacing this, I am back to square one.  Honda had the foresight to install seals on the frame bushing to prevent inclusion of water/dirt but replacing them is of little use unless if you can install frame bushing and remove any potential play...

 

One a whim, I took a look at a 2006 KTM 450 SX fiche this evening and noted that their brake pedal is supported by (2) bearings on a 10mm bolt, a much BETTER design and is LESS EXPENSIVE!  Even the DRZ400 has a similar setup (no bearings, but the pedal is supported on a bolt, you can replace both without issue, although it is pricey).

 

I've gone through the Grainger site looking through mounted bearings to see if I could find something that could lock onto the 15mm pedal shaft and while there are some options, nothing will really fit given the space considerations...

 

I also considered hacking the Honda pedal and welding in a collar which could fit a standard rollar bearing and then welding in a bung which could accept a 10mm bolt but probably have been looking at a computer screen too long...

 

I don't know if all this gibberish makes any sense but if anyone has some ideas please share!

 

By the way, my 1982 YZ80 had the EXACT same problem...

[reduceus]

i drilled the brake pedal, fitted a grease nipple and it gets a shot of grease every time its washed - wear rate much reduced.

[jjast]

I don't have any useful input condershire but I am thankful that you are looking for a better answer, keep up the good work. ?

[SpudRider]

i drilled the brake pedal, fitted a grease nipple and it gets a shot of grease every time its washed - wear rate much reduced.

 

That sounds very interesting.  If you have time, please do post some photographs. ?

 

Spud ?

[condershire]

It is 1:29 in the morning and after looking through catalogs, crunching numbers and double checking dimensions, I may have an answer...

This will be a PERMANENT modification but will definitely be an UPGRADE! The best part, it should be inexpensive ($30-$50) but will require a welder... I have to double check some measurements and verify with a supplier tomorrow but it looks like you can have a KTM style brake pedal on the XRL (without the price)...

[Onederer]

Have you thought about if there is a piston pin needle bearing the correct size?

 

 

Maybe remove the bronze bushing and replace it with a thinner steel bushing to keep wear off the frame mount, then turn the brake lever pin down as little as needed to make a good fit.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Onederer

[condershire]

Have you thought about if there is a piston pin needle bearing the correct size?

 

Maybe remove the bronze bushing and replace it with a thinner steel bushing to keep wear off the frame mount, then turn the brake lever pin down as little as needed to make a good fit.

 

Those are great ideas and I considered this, checked VXB's website and perused the needle bearing lists.  I found some great candidates, also checked Grainger and Fastenal and found some bronze bushings which would work as well.  The issue, from my seat in the bleachers, is that no matter what bearing type you install, if you use the stock pedal, you will still likely encounter some wear in the brake pedal pivot.  This would not be a big deal were it a $20 - $30 part but the cheapest I can find a new one is at around $60 and as high as $90, which is rather pricey for simple pivot wear.  It is not economically feasible to rebuild the pivot portion and re-machine, at least for me anyways...

 

Basically my solution would require (2) machined parts and access to a dremel or pea grinder, ideally a bench grinder, and a welder (a 120 volt version would be fine, I have a Hobart Handler 140).  I have to check with a fellow who makes threaded inserts today to determine the cost.  I'm being finicky and probably over-engineering this thing but a man has to have his hobbies...

 

Essentially what you will end up with is a KTM or similar brake pedal pivot system, total cost assuming you have all the tools should be well under $50, that is with the cost of the bearings.  I'm married with an adult son and daughter at home so buying additional bikes is really not an option, I have to work with what I have...

[reduceus]

Nothing difficult guys - just drill and tap

 

 

Apologies for the dirt, just got back in and saw the post....excuse for being a lazy barsteward and not cleaning bike yet

Edited February 7, 2014 by reduceus

[Onederer]

How difficult was it to turn the bike upside down? ^^^

[reduceus]

No need too.... just had a load of guys hold it up in the air whilst i drilled it - the difficulty was them all spinning round whilst I held the drill bit still....

[ScottRNelson]

Was I supposed to be lubricating the brake pedal pivot?

 

What other regular maintenance items have I been totally ignoring?

[SpudRider]

Was I supposed to be lubricating the brake pedal pivot?

 

What other regular maintenance items have I been totally ignoring?

 

I do my best to avoid taking off the brake pedal, since I hate to mess with that crummy cotter pin.  ?   However, whenever I must remove the brake pedal, I put a little axle grease on the pivot before I re-install the brake pedal. ?  I like the grease zerk.   ?  Thanks for posting the photo, Reduceus.

 

Spud ?

Edited February 7, 2014 by SpudRider

[ScottRNelson]

I do my best to avoid taking off the brake pedal, since I hate to mess with that crummy cotter pin.  ?   However, whenever I must remove the brake pedal, I put a little axle grease on the pivot before I re-install the brake pedal. ?  I like the grease zerk.   ?  Thanks for posting the photo, Reduceus.

I'm not sure I've ever had to remove a brake pedal from a motorcycle.

 

I do know that I'm overdue to bleed the brakes front and rear and replace the fork oil.

 

Mostly I fill it with gas, change the engine oil every 2000 miles, and put new tires on it when they wear out.  I guess I lube the chain once in a while too.

 

I'm not very good at maintaining my bike in top shape.  My thinking always goes "work on it or go for a ride on it - I think I'll go ride".

[SpudRider]

I'm not sure I've ever had to remove a brake pedal from a motorcycle.

 

I do know that I'm overdue to bleed the brakes front and rear and replace the fork oil.

 

Mostly I fill it with gas, change the engine oil every 2000 miles, and put new tires on it when they wear out.  I guess I lube the chain once in a while too.

 

I'm not very good at maintaining my bike in top shape.  My thinking always goes "work on it or go for a ride on it - I think I'll go ride".

 

I know what you mean.  I would much rather ride, than wrench!   ?   I always remove the rear brake pedal whenever I need to remove the right crankcase cover.  I guess you can get the crankcase cover off without removing the brake pedal, but I think it's easier for me to remove the brake pedal.

 

Changing the XR650L fork oil is easy; it doesn't take much time.  In general, for dual sport riding, I usually change the fork oil every 10,000 miles, or two years, whichever comes first.  You can certainly change the oil more frequently than I.  The service manual specifies 564cc of oil per fork, so you need a little more than 1 liter of fork oil to service both forks.  I replaced my fork oil last year with Valvoline MaxLife Dex/Merc ATF, which cost me $13.50/gallon.  The Valvoline MaxLife has a viscosity of 28.82 cSt at 40C, and I like the way it works in my stock forks.

 

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/maxlife_atf.pdf

 

If you use ATF for fork oil, the price is quite reasonable, so it doesn't cost much to change the oil as frequently as you like.  However, a liter of fork oil doesn't cost much either. ?  The forks work noticeably better after you replace the worn fork oil. ?

 

Spud ?

[Fritzcoinc]

My $.02.

Reading this thread I never really understood how a slightly loose brake pedal was caused problems other than " just don't like it ".

I like to brake as late as possible so I hammer the brakes. This makes me feel like a racer I guess. My pedal is loose and doesn't seem to adversely affect it's use.

I think the pedal is engineered to be loose so at rest there is no rear master cylinder actuation from the pedal weight.  This would of course fry the rear brake system.

 

Spud is correct, changing fork oil is a good idea and is pretty easy to do. But you should consider setting the height of the air gap instead of just adding a volume of oil.

With the fork collapsed, the spring removed, all the air out of the damping rods, the air gap is the dimension from the top of the fork tube to the top of the oil column. The air gap acts like a spring and adjusting it's dimension can be used to tune the front suspension. The XR650L forks use a 100 to 130MM air gap. Although it cost more, fork oil is best as it is has the best resistance to foaming.

[ThumpNRed]

+ 1 on the fork oil. While ATF fluid may be of a proper viscosity, there is more to it than simply getting the right weight of fluid. Foam on beer is good, not in forks.

[condershire]

For those who are still interested, I drafted up the CAD files and sent them out, there are only two parts and they are relatively simple.  I should get an answer back in a few days regarding cost and thus feasibility.  As for the riding vs wrenching, seems to me they both go hand in hand...

[Fritzcoinc]

Was I supposed to be lubricating the brake pedal pivot?

 

What other regular maintenance items have I been totally ignoring?

Does your rear suspension lower linkage have grease fittings?

They should be greased as often as possible.

Rebuilding the rear suspension is not difficult but the decision is up to the ride/wrench department.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Fritzcoinc

[brianhare]

I grease my rear pivot often,,always full of rusty crud...the seals are a joke,,a grease fitting may help..but with the water i cross and the location of that pivot,,it is what it is,i could care less and just lube it often..

 

B

[Onederer]

Yes, the seals are a joke.^^^

 

I don't think they work as designed when new and much less so when there is a lot of play in the pivot.

 

 

I had an idea a little late for this, but check out the XL600R brake pedal design. Although it wouldn't be a direct swap for the XR650L, maybe it wouldn't be too difficult to design something similar.