Procom CDI Review

[RK-REX]

Thanks Guy ?

I have to put in a new timing chain on my son's XR and figured this would be a zero cost mod while the wheel was off. 

[gio_crf_tt]

Hi Everyone; first post on this forum.

I did not create a new topic since I have questions mainly relating to the Procom CDI (but also on other subjects discussed in here): if I'm not following the rules, please let me know.

Little background info: I live in Italy, where I recently bought a Honda CRF 230 F my 2006 (at that time those bikes were branded and sold here as HM Moto; mine is the Easy Motard version). This bike serves several purposes in the house: my wife also uses it; we run errands with it, and from time to time we ride on country roads and very easy off-roads/trails; I'm middle aged, I've always had a passion for anything technical, including motorcycles, but I'm nothing like most of you, whom I consider super-experts and guru.

I've done the few basic power-up mods; I'm not looking for any huge gains, I just want the bike to "breath" as it supposed to, while keeping the low maintenance and bullet proof reliability features:

- Air box restriction removed;

- Re-jetted: 48 piliot (tried the 45 as well); 110 main (also tried 115); needle up one notch - the bike seems to run decently, but I'm not sure jetting is dialed in 100% right (this my fault, due to lack of experience in carburation...);

- Exhaust: since I also ride on streets and roads, I want the bike street legal and quiet, so I left the stock muffler, and I'm playing with one of those "Swiss-chees" perforated baffle cans to see if can keep stock dB level (93 dB) while getting some more flow (and keep some "back-pressure" for low-mid end torque, which is where I like to ride the most).

OK, questions:

- Procom CDI: given that over here they're more expensive than in the US (and perhaps other countries as well), I've found one for about Eur 60, which is fairly good (typically they run 1.5-2 times as much). Reading your opinion and impressions, it seems to really add some juice to low and mid range, however I'm concerned with the CDI not having rev limit at all....I contacted Procom and they said in written that the CDI is rev limited at 10.000 rpm, whereas some other people on the web say the CDI is a "killer", not having rev limit...What is your opinion on this? Not having a rev limiter scares the Hell out of me; on the other hand why Procom should state that the limit is 10.000 rpm, when that's not the case?

- FMF header pipe: you guys say so many good things about it, that I started to look around, and found one at a relatively good price (they sell here for about 240-260 Eur, the one I'm looking at is Eur 180...); what's holding me back a bit is that the seller says the pipe will only fit the FMF slip-on. Reading TT posts seems that the FMF pipe fit perfectly with stock muffler, so is the seller just wanting to sell a full-system?

Thanks in advance and keep the outstanding work.

Best Regards

Giovanni

[bajatrailrider]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:58 AM, gio_crf_tt said:

Hi Everyone; first post on this forum.

I did not create a new topic since I have questions mainly relating to the Procom CDI (but also on other subjects discussed in here): if I'm not following the rules, please let me know.

Little background info: I live in Italy, where I recently bought a Honda CRF 230 F my 2006 (at that time those bikes were branded and sold here as HM Moto; mine is the Easy Motard version). This bike serves several purposes in the house: my wife also uses it; we run errands with it, and from time to time we ride on country roads and very easy off-roads/trails; I'm middle aged, I've always had a passion for anything technical, including motorcycles, but I'm nothing like most of you, whom I consider super-experts and guru.

I've done the few basic power-up mods; I'm not looking for any huge gains, I just want the bike to "breath" as it supposed to, while keeping the low maintenance and bullet proof reliability features:

- Air box restriction removed;

- Re-jetted: 48 piliot (tried the 45 as well); 110 main (also tried 115); needle up one notch - the bike seems to run decently, but I'm not sure jetting is dialed in 100% right (this my fault, due to lack of experience in carburation...);

- Exhaust: since I also ride on streets and roads, I want the bike street legal and quiet, so I left the stock muffler, and I'm playing with one of those "Swiss-chees" perforated baffle cans to see if can keep stock dB level (93 dB) while getting some more flow (and keep some "back-pressure" for low-mid end torque, which is where I like to ride the most).

OK, questions:

- Procom CDI: given that over here they're more expensive than in the US (and perhaps other countries as well), I've found one for about Eur 60, which is fairly good (typically they run 1.5-2 times as much). Reading your opinion and impressions, it seems to really add some juice to low and mid range, however I'm concerned with the CDI not having rev limit at all....I contacted Procom and they said in written that the CDI is rev limited at 10.000 rpm, whereas some other people on the web say the CDI is a "killer", not having rev limit...What is your opinion on this? Not having a rev limiter scares the Hell out of me; on the other hand why Procom should state that the limit is 10.000 rpm, when that's not the case?

- FMF header pipe: you guys say so many good things about it, that I started to look around, and found one at a relatively good price (they sell here for about 240-260 Eur, the one I'm looking at is Eur 180...); what's holding me back a bit is that the seller says the pipe will only fit the FMF slip-on. Reading TT posts seems that the FMF pipe fit perfectly with stock muffler, so is the seller just wanting to sell a full-system?

Thanks in advance and keep the outstanding work.

Best Regards

Giovanni

My stroked 230/built 254cc with procom box. Has 3 years on it . Rode almost every week hard hill climbs zero concern of over reving with procom box. As I don't just rev my bikes brains out just to hear it rev. On big hill climb yes wide open then I back off as it is going faster then I can ride. as far as biggest bang. Forget the FMF pipe stock engine next to zero gain. The procom box gives you more hit off idle and a little more though power range. Your biggest power robber stock baffle in muffler. I have mounted the PKW carb on 6 230s stock and built the stockers stock bikes only baffle out. The power was more then big bore 233cc and mild cam with stock carb. Since you ride on street yes you need quite bike so mod the stock baffle.  

[gio_crf_tt]

21 hours ago, bajatrailrider said:

My stroked 230/built 254cc with procom box. Has 3 years on it . Rode almost every week hard hill climbs zero concern of over reving with procom box. As I don't just rev my bikes brains out just to hear it rev. On big hill climb yes wide open then I back off as it is going faster then I can ride. as far as biggest bang. Forget the FMF pipe stock engine next to zero gain. The procom box gives you more hit off idle and a little more though power range. Your biggest power robber stock baffle in muffler. I have mounted the PKW carb on 6 230s stock and built the stockers stock bikes only baffle out. The power was more then big bore 233cc and mild cam with stock carb. Since you ride on street yes you need quite bike so mod the stock baffle.  

Thanks a lot for the reply, bajatrailrider. OK, so the Procom CDI does something on a stock engine; my concern over the rev limiter is not that I'd be revving it up to the moon just for the hell of it (that'd be a little stupid, wouldn't it), it's just an engine safety concern in general: first I do not have a tachometer; and secondly, it can accidentally happen (such as in a fall or something like it) that the throttle gets out of control; anyways, Procom states there's a rev limit at 10000 rpm, and was just curious if anybody could confirm that. On the FMF pipe, reading some opinions (such as, among the others, from VortecCPI and Rick Ramsey, whom I have the highest respect for and consider most experts and reputable) I got the feeling the FMF header gives, even if minor, some improvements in the low mid - mid range (and helps reduce a bit the noise).

I cannot ride withe stock muffler without the stock buffle: it's annoyingly noisy and would mean looking for troubles...how do you suggest modding the stock baffle to get some performance while keeping the noise down? I bought this guy here as well:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Universal-Motorcycle-Exhaust-Can-Muffler-Baffle-DB-Killer-Silencer-35mm-US-J4U0/282698122911?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Once I get it I'll experiment to see if I can reach a happy medium - have you (or anyone on this forum) tried onee?

Thanks a lot again, Sir.

BR

giovanni

[adnohguy]

Said it before and here it is again:

If you would like a more aggressive ignition advance curve that still has the factory Honda RPM limiter of a 230f then try a 2005 or older 150f CDI box.

Much more exciting than a stock 230f box but not as much of a smile maker as the Pro Com.

 

But Don’t confuse an extra 500 rpm limiter of a pro com over a stock box:

 

If your pinned under your bike and cannot get up, your twist grip is buried in the dirt with the throttle WFO, depending on how long till it dies from whatever the cause, could happen with ANY CDI box including a stocker.

 

500 extra RPM is not absolutely required for engine damage to occur.

 

Or spend nothing except your time and maybe a gasket to advance your ignition timing buy building an modified flywheel key.

 

You want larger smiles while riding?

GET A PROCOM AND DON’T WORRY ABOUT IT.

[bajatrailrider]

2 minutes ago, adnohguy said:

Said it before and here it is again:

If you would like a more aggressive ignition advance curve that still has the factory Honda RPM limiter of a 230f then try a 2005 or older 150f CDI box.

Much more exciting than a stock 230f box but not as much of a smile maker as the Pro Com.

 

But Don’t confuse an extra 500 rpm limiter of a pro com over a stock box:

 

If your pinned under your bike and cannot get up, your twist grip is buried in the dirt with the throttle WFO, depending on how long till it dies from whatever the cause, could happen with ANY CDI box including a stocker.

 

500 extra RPM is not absolutely required for engine damage to occur.

 

Or spend nothing except your time and maybe a gasket to advance your ignition timing buy building an modified flywheel key.

 

That is what happened to me two months ago. My stroker with procom box.three of us found old path over grown with brush tree branches. Fighting every inch with brush dragging off bikes . Tree branch went under my gas tank went in lt side out rt side. With thottle cable. Pulled out top of carb wide open could not get nutual as . I'm pinned on bike thick in brush.cant find kill button as also coveed in brush. Took awhile to get one hand to get kill button. Zero problems have not had that happen in over 50 years riding. Go for the procom.

 

[gio_crf_tt]

 

1 hour ago, bajatrailrider said:

That is what happened to me two months ago. My stroker with procom box.three of us found old path over grown with brush tree branches. Fighting every inch with brush dragging off bikes . Tree branch went under my gas tank went in lt side out rt side. With thottle cable. Pulled out top of carb wide open could not get nutual as . I'm pinned on bike thick in brush.cant find kill button as also coveed in brush. Took awhile to get one hand to get kill button. Zero problems have not had that happen in over 50 years riding. Go for the procom.

 

 

1 hour ago, adnohguy said:

Said it before and here it is again:

If you would like a more aggressive ignition advance curve that still has the factory Honda RPM limiter of a 230f then try a 2005 or older 150f CDI box.

Much more exciting than a stock 230f box but not as much of a smile maker as the Pro Com.

 

But Don’t confuse an extra 500 rpm limiter of a pro com over a stock box:

 

If your pinned under your bike and cannot get up, your twist grip is buried in the dirt with the throttle WFO, depending on how long till it dies from whatever the cause, could happen with ANY CDI box including a stocker.

 

500 extra RPM is not absolutely required for engine damage to occur.

 

Or spend nothing except your time and maybe a gasket to advance your ignition timing buy building an modified flywheel key.

 

You want larger smiles while riding?

GET A PROCOM AND DON’T WORRY ABOUT IT.

Well guys....I'm sold on the Procom...yes, I want big smiles.....

Thanks a lot: really appreciate your awesome feed-back.

I'll order it and report back once installed (it'll come from the US, so it'll be a while...).

Ciao

giovanni

[RedMesa]

On 9/13/2018 at 9:08 AM, bajatrailrider said:

Your biggest power robber stock baffle in muffler. I have mounted the PKW carb on 6 230s stock and built the stockers stock bikes only baffle out. The power was more then big bore 233cc and mild cam with stock carb. Since you ride on street yes you need quite bike so mod the stock baffle.  

My original baffle is in a landfill somewhere. So I bought a “Bikers Choice Exhaust Pipe Baffle 1-1/2" OD Steel 64301 492611”. 

Before installing the ProCom I tried riding with and without the baffle. Could not tell any difference in power or sound.

After installing the ProCom it made a difference. Notes from 11/11/16: "Stopped and removed the baffle. With the ProCom CDI I really noticed that it seemed plugged up and less free revving. Just kind of moaning with back pressure." 

"The bike would just not howl up test hills. I compared it back to back with open muffler and the difference was very noticeable. It didn’t seem to lower the noise level much so I left it out."

So this baffle, for me, not only reduces power but does not reduce noise. I confirmed this with sound level measurements. 

With or without the baffle: 86 dB
With PowerBomb, with or without the baffle: 87 dB

Test details here https://docs.google.com/document/u/2/d/1mEsw891e5HUdLIrq4yYQzm2QCsRgK-ihDkrL_fu7_iA/pub#h.nor3lvjbpjz0

Ramz on diffusers aka baffles https://www.rickramsey.net/CRF230Fmods.htm

PowerBomb fits stock exhaust perfectly. Notes and pix here

https://docs.google.com/document/u/2/d/1mEsw891e5HUdLIrq4yYQzm2QCsRgK-ihDkrL_fu7_iA/pub#h.duu8h1kvn3m3

I would give up a little power for more quiet but have not found a solution. Maybe I should try a ""Swiss-cheese" perforated baffle can" which is bigger than the Bikers Choice??

Edited September 15, 2018 by RedMesa

[gio_crf_tt]

16 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

My original baffle is in a landfill somewhere. So I bought a “Bikers Choice Exhaust Pipe Baffle 1-1/2" OD Steel 64301 492611”. 

Before installing the ProCom I tried riding with and without the baffle. Could not tell any difference in power or sound.

After installing the ProCom it made a difference. Notes from 11/11/16: "Stopped and removed the baffle. With the ProCom CDI I really noticed that it seemed plugged up and less free revving. Just kind of moaning with back pressure." 

"The bike would just not howl up test hills. I compared it back to back with open muffler and the difference was very noticeable. It didn’t seem to lower the noise level much so I left it out."

So this baffle, for me, not only reduces power but does not reduce noise. I confirmed this with sound level measurements. 

With or without the baffle: 86 dB
With PowerBomb, with or without the baffle: 87 dB

Test details here https://docs.google.com/document/u/2/d/1mEsw891e5HUdLIrq4yYQzm2QCsRgK-ihDkrL_fu7_iA/pub#h.nor3lvjbpjz0

Ramz on diffusers aka baffles https://www.rickramsey.net/CRF230Fmods.htm

PowerBomb fits stock exhaust perfectly. Notes and pix here

https://docs.google.com/document/u/2/d/1mEsw891e5HUdLIrq4yYQzm2QCsRgK-ihDkrL_fu7_iA/pub#h.duu8h1kvn3m3

I would give up a little power for more quiet but have not found a solution. Maybe I should try a ""Swiss-cheese" perforated baffle can" which is bigger than the Bikers Choice??

Hi RedMesa. I actually have also the biker's choice baffle (I saw it on Rick Ramsey notes a while back and decided to give it a try): my experience is that it opens up a bit the exhaust, noise level is a little lower than stock muffler without any baffle, but still too noisy for me; hopefully the "Swiss-cheese" perforated baffle can" being longer and adjustable (it actually has a solid plug at the bottom, as opposed to the biker's choice) works better...I ordered it from China (that's what the e-bay listing said, but it was actually shipped out from Laos...) and waiting for it to arrive.

On the FMF powerbomb: the FMF description says it lowers the noise level by 1 dB (and several users also seem to confirm that), but from your measurements looks like it increases it by 1 dB...that's strange, isn'it?

[RedMesa]

1 minute ago, gio_crf_tt said:

Hi RedMesa. I actually have also the biker's choice baffle (I saw it on Rick Ramsey notes a while back and decided to give it a try): my experience is that it opens up a bit the exhaust, noise level is a little lower than stock muffler without any baffle, but still too noisy for me; hopefully the "Swiss-cheese" perforated baffle can" being longer and adjustable (it actually has a solid plug at the bottom, as opposed to the biker's choice) works better...I ordered it from China (that's what the e-bay listing said, but it was actually shipped out from Laos...) and waiting for it to arrive.

On the FMF powerbomb: the FMF description says it lowers the noise level by 1 dB (and several users also seem to confirm that), but from your measurements looks like it increases it by 1 dB...that's strange, isn'it?

Hi Giovanni, please report on your results with the Swiss Cheese... that will be very interesting

Yes, it is strange. I did expect the PowerBomb to be quieter so that was a surprise. It is possible my test / data is wrong but I tried to do it very carefully.

[gio_crf_tt]

3 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

Hi Giovanni, please report on your results with the Swiss Cheese... that will be very interesting

Yes, it is strange. I did expect the PowerBomb to be quieter so that was a surprise. It is possible my test / data is wrong but I tried to do it very carefully.

Will definitely do: while waiting for it to arrive, I'm trying to educate my self on what the best position for the solid plug could be; I think moving it towards the exhaust outlet side reduces noise level but decreases flow; also, based on this info:

https://www.tabperformance.com/Reduce-Back-Pressure-Exhaust-s/203.htm

I might try to tune the end cap either positioning at 45 degree angle, or making two tiny holes on it...honestly I'm not expert at all so I guess the only way to know is to try.

Regarding the noise level measurement, 1 dB difference as measured in an uncontrolled environment (outdoors) and with a non calibrated device might not mean much: did you do background noise level measurements during your tests?

[RedMesa]

7 minutes ago, gio_crf_tt said:

I might try to tune the end cap either positioning at 45 degree angle, or making two tiny holes on it...honestly I'm not expert at all so I guess the only way to know is to try.

Regarding the noise level measurement, 1 dB difference as measured in an uncontrolled environment (outdoors) and with a non calibrated device might not mean much: did you do background noise level measurements during your tests?

It will take some experimentation. Smart phone with a sound measuring app may help to judge relative noise level...

On the other hand as you point out testing is challenging. Background noise was fairly low and consistent but as you point out it is a confounding variable that I did not control for! ? I will update the section with this caveat. Thanks for pointing it out.

[gio_crf_tt]

12 minutes ago, gio_crf_tt said:

Will definitely do: while waiting for it to arrive, I'm trying to educate my self on what the best position for the solid plug could be; I think moving it towards the exhaust outlet side reduces noise level but decreases flow; also, based on this info:

https://www.tabperformance.com/Reduce-Back-Pressure-Exhaust-s/203.htm

I might try to tune the end cap either positioning at 45 degree angle, or making two tiny holes on it...honestly I'm not expert at all so I guess the only way to know is to try.

Regarding the noise level measurement, 1 dB difference as measured in an uncontrolled environment (outdoors) and with a non calibrated device might not mean much: did you do background noise level measurements during your tests?

This a more detailed explanation for "baffle tuning" (an sure you know that already)

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust.htm

[gio_crf_tt]

7 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

It will take some experimentation. Smart phone with a sound measuring app may help to judge relative noise level...

On the other hand as you point out testing is challenging. Background noise was fairly low and consistent but as you point out it is a confounding variable that I did not control for! ? I will update the section with this caveat. Thanks for pointing it out.

You're welcome, my pleasure.

[gio_crf_tt]

14 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

It will take some experimentation. Smart phone with a sound measuring app may help to judge relative noise level...

On the other hand as you point out testing is challenging. Background noise was fairly low and consistent but as you point out it is a confounding variable that I did not control for! ? I will update the section with this caveat. Thanks for pointing it out.

Decibel X is a fairly good app: the pro version has Frequency Weighting Filters - A weighted dB is what needs to be measured; besides it has also calibration features.

What app are you using?

[RedMesa]

42 minutes ago, gio_crf_tt said:

Decibel X is a fairly good app: the pro version has Frequency Weighting Filters - A weighted dB is what needs to be measured; besides it has also calibration features.

What app are you using?

Nexus 7 2013 tablet running “Sound Meter” app

I believe the USFS field test (SAE standard) is supposed to use a calibrated and dedicated meter. The procedure does mention "Set sound level meter to the slow dynamic response and the A-weighting network (if equipped with this option)." That relates to your comment on weighting.

Edited September 15, 2018 by RedMesa

[gio_crf_tt]

17 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

Nexus 7 2013 tablet running “Sound Meter” app

I believe the USFS field test (SAE standard) is supposed to use a calibrated and dedicated meter. The procedure does mention "Set sound level meter to the slow dynamic response and the A-weighting network (if equipped with this option)." 

There's an interesting study by NIOSH (NIOSH requirements on sound meter specs and accuracy definitely comply with SAE, ISO, IEC):

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2014/04/09/sound-apps/

You may also want to try this android app: Noise Meter by JINASYS (also mentioned in the NIOSH study).

[RedMesa]

19 minutes ago, gio_crf_tt said:

There's an interesting study by NIOSH (NIOSH requirements on sound meter specs and accuracy definitely comply with SAE, ISO, IEC):

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2014/04/09/sound-apps/

You may also want to try this android app: Noise Meter by JINASYS (also mentioned in the NIOSH study).

Well, we have gotten on a bit of a tangent. This very seldom happens in this forum ?

Really interesting study, especially the new follow up

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003682X17309945?via%3Dihub 

It looks like the key is a good calibrated microphone: $120

https://www.amazon.com/MicW-Calibrated-Measurement-External-Microphone/dp/B00510Y3KC

I have consulted with the guru BTR and he agrees that such a microphone, if purchased, must be powder-coated red to work with a CRF230F! ? 

But seriously, this is good but not cheap. For tuning of sound level, I'm thinking that a better app with weighting may be sufficient. This will show relative differences, not absolute calibrated dB.

Edited September 15, 2018 by RedMesa

[gio_crf_tt]

14 minutes ago, gio_crf_tt said:

There's an interesting study by NIOSH (NIOSH requirements on sound meter specs and accuracy definitely comply with SAE, ISO, IEC):

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2014/04/09/sound-apps/

You may also want to try this android app: Noise Meter by JINASYS (also mentioned in the NIOSH study).

I believe Decibel X Pro (paid) is superior to Noise Meter; however the limitation of using a mobile app is in the device hardware itself (microphone - even though some devices have microphone specs almost up to par); Noise Meter allows you to set sampling frequency and A-weighted filter. Expect an accuracy of +/- 2 - 3 dB.....so if your allowed target is 93 dB(A) max, your source, when measured with a mobile device app, should be around 89-90 dB(A) max - it's still an approximation, but you're probably close to a real measurement.

[gio_crf_tt]

8 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

Well, we have gotten on a bit of a tangent. This very seldom happens in this forum ?

Really interesting study, especially the new follow up

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003682X17309945?via%3Dihub 

It looks like the key is a good calibrated microphone: $120

https://www.amazon.com/MicW-Calibrated-Measurement-External-Microphone/dp/B00510Y3KC

I have consulted with the guru BTR and he agrees that such a microphone, if purchased, must be powder-coated red to work with a CRF230F! ? 

But seriously, this is good but not cheap. For tuning of sound level, I'm thinking that a better app with weighting may be sufficient. This will show relative differences, not absolute calibrated dB.

Sorry about deviating from the topic...I'm a bit of a "geek" ?...I get carried away by almost anything tech....