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Another oil ? (Kx450f)

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Breaking in my 2012 kx450f this weekend and the only oil I could get locally is the maxima atv premium 10w40. It seems to be the same as the others for my bike. will this be fine? ImageUploadedByThumper Talk1397857265.558255.jpg

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Breaking in my 2012 kx450f this weekend and the only oil I could get locally is the maxima atv premium 10w40. It seems to be the same as the others for my bike. will this be fine? attachicon.gifImageUploadedByThumper Talk1397857265.558255.jpg

 

 

It will be fine, but you do realize, nearly all so-called "motorcycle-specific" oils are nothing more than re-packaged automotive oils with a higher price tag?

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It will be fine, but you do realize, nearly all so-called "motorcycle-specific" oils are nothing more than re-packaged automotive oils with a higher price tag?

Most automotive oils have friction modifiers that are not good for wet clutches. Diesel oils like Rotella will work fine and do not have the friction modifiers.

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Most automotive oils have friction modifiers that are not good for wet clutches. Diesel oils like Rotella will work fine and do not have the friction modifiers.

 

 

All oils have "friction modifiers". At the very least they have boundary agents such as molybdenum and zinc and phosphorous. And diesel oils have far more additives in them than any automotive oil, things like soot dispersants that automotive oils don't need.

 

Like I said, most "motorcycle" oils are the same oils that come in bottles on your auto parts store shelves. You don't think Yamaha, Suzuki, etc. own a refinery, do you?

 

There's a lot of myths about oils that are or not suitable for our machines, and most of them have absolutely no factual basis.
 
"Don't use an energy Conserving oil or your clutch will slip."
 
"You must use a JASO MA rated oil in your engine or you'll cause premature failure and wear."
 
The myth about automotive oils making your clutch slip started when the Energy Conserving (EC) standard came into being. EC oils have much lower levels of zinc and phosphorous, because these additives can damage a catalytic converter. And the word moly automatically makes people think that the moly additive will cause buildup on the plates which will lead to slippage. But the truth is there is nothing wrong with oils that contain moly, and in fact many motorcycle-specific oils contain moly. I have yet to see any evidence to show that any so-called "friction-modified" (Energy Conserving, or EC) oil will cause any problems. In fact, all engine oils have friction modifiers of some sort in them. the Energy Conserving designation (EC) was devised to denote oils that met new emissions standards requiring lower levels of phosphorous. the EC standard is about emissions, not friction.
 
Since the standard requires a reduction in useful additives such as phosphorous and zinc, the manufacturers had to come up with replacements. One of the additives that the oil engineers can use to bring the lubrication properties back to the level that it was with the higher levels of phosphorus is molybdenum (moly).
 
 
The problem with the belief that the moly additive will make clutches slip is that oil companies don't use the form of moly that would cause this problem, Molybdenum Disulfide MoS2. That type of moly is typically used for the formulation of industrial gear lubes, chain lubes, and greases, not engine or transmission oils.
 
Engine oil formulators use Molybdenum DialkyldiThioCarbamate. This formulation of moly has been proven in both lab testing and actual use to not cause clutch problems at any level you are ever going to find in an oil bottle.
 
The funny thing is, many people will start beating the "moto-specific-oil" drum, and try to tell you that if you don't use motorcycle oil, your clutch will slip. But in fact, many JASO MA rated (certified for use in a wet-clutch environment) moto-specific oils contain levels of moly that are much higher than any EC-rated automotive oil. So if it's bad in an automotive oil, why then is it perfectly acceptable in a motorcycle oil?
 
Even the JASO MA rating is itself a scam in my opinion. All it means is that an oil has been submitted for certification as to it's ability to operate in a wet clutch environment. That does not, however, mean that a non- JASO MA oil will not perform equally well in the same wet-clutch environment. Many oils are simply not submitted for this certification, beca7use the manufacturers are not specifically targeting the motorcycle market, so they do not wish to invest the time and money required to obtain that certification. And in fact, there are more than a few motorcycle specific oils on the market that do not have the JASO MA certification.
 
Most any oil will be acceptable in your tranny, as long as it is changed at reasonable intervals. the problem is, what would be considered a reasonable interval for any other engine is not a reasonable interval for our bikes. the real enemy of oil in our trannies is in contamination from the clutch, and viscosity-shear from the gear teeth. the only solution for those problems is frequent oil changes. In most cases, choosing an oil that your budget allows you to change frequently is better than choosing a much more expensive oil that you aren't willing to change as often because of the high cost.
 
So called "diesel" oils are nothing more than automotive oils with a more robust additive package, especially higher detergent levels. Some of the best performing oils that you can find for our trannies are diesel oils such as Delo and Rotella T. And some of those high-dollar "boutique" moto-specific oils will shear out of viscosity faster than a standard off-the-shelf auto oil. Most oils will shear out of viscosity in our transmissions, under race conditions, in as little as 4 hours. If that doesn't convince you of the need for frequent changes, then nothing will.
 
When I was younger and competed seriously, I used to do UOA (used oil analysis) testing. It's a useful tool that can tell you a lot about the condition of your oil and engine, and whether or not you are using an appropriate oil, changing it often enough, etc. One consistent finding was that, most oils would stay in viscosity for up to four hours in our trannies under race conditions. Beyond four hours nearly all oils began to shear out of viscosity at rapid rates, and price points had no bearing on this. Expensive "motorcycle specific" oils often sheared out of viscosity sooner than cheap off-the-shelf generic oils.
 
Of all the oils I used, Rotella stayed in viscosity longest, but ATF was by far the king in that regard. ATF will resist molecular shearing in a wet-clutch tranny far longer than any engine oil.
 
And so I use ATF type F in my two-stroke trannies. It's an excellent choice for a wet clutch environment, it has better thermal stability and shear resistance than most engine oils. It's also very cheap, so I change it often. You can also use gear oil, or any good engine oil. How often you change it is more important than what you put in it.
 
I use the ATF in my KX250. For my YZ250F, I used Shell Rotella 10W40. I change it every 3-4 hours.
 
Of course, there will always be the nay-sayers that will swear that you are leading your machine to an early death if you don't run those so-called "moto-specific" JASO MA oils, or that you are going to do damage to your clutch. And that's just such a crock. there are many motorcycle oils that do not have the JASO MA rating, as well as many automotive oils that meet or exceed the same standards but simply haven't been submitted for certification because they aren't targeted at the motorcycle market. But, since so many dealers (that make a huge profit on oil sales) try to convince riders that they are doing their machines a disservice by not using these products, and the myth is perpetuated on sites such as this, the debate goes on and on...and it will probably never be resolved. But if running that high-dollar moto-specific oil makes you feel better, then by all means, use it, there's something to be said for the feel-good factor, after all.
Edited by Chokey
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Wow, I didn't expect a dissertation on oil when I checked in this morning. I used to work for Mobil oil, so I know a little about oil also. No Kawasaki may not own a refinery, but their oils are blended for therm. The safety sheet that came with Honda's oil came from Valvoline, but it is not the same as car oil. I can buy the Kawasaki 10/40 motorcycle dino oil at my dealer by the gallon for about the same price as automotive oil, so I had rather be safe than sorry.

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Wow, I didn't expect a dissertation on oil when I checked in this morning. I used to work for Mobil oil, so I know a little about oil also. No Kawasaki may not own a refinery, but their oils are blended for therm. The safety sheet that came with Honda's oil came from Valvoline, but it is not the same as car oil. I can buy the Kawasaki 10/40 motorcycle dino oil at my dealer by the gallon for about the same price as automotive oil, so I had rather be safe than sorry.

 

 

They tell the oil company what specs they need to meet, and the oil company determines the additives that need to be blended into the base stocks to meet those requirements.

 

The additives are the only significant difference. The oils still meet the same certification standards as automotive oils, because, well, an engine is an engine.

 

What did you do at Mobil? Where you a blender, a chemist, a researcher? A pipe fitter?

 

How is choosing Kawasaki oil over any other oil that meets the same certification standards being "safe rather than sorry"? That's kinda like saying you buy Smith and Wesson 9mm ammo instead of Sig Sauer 9mm ammo for your Smith and Wesson 9mm pistol because it's "safer" since it's the same brand.

Edited by Chokey

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I worked for a Mobil oil distributor where I determined which oil fit the needs of the factories we served. From hydraulic fluids, diesel oils, to the oils they used in their company cars, I picked. So maybe I could have been called a researcher, but my actual title was manager. Mobil (and most of the plants we served) are out of this area and I am a principal in an elementary school now. You echoed what I said about the companies blending the oils specific and you also are using what I said I would use (Rotella) if I didn't use Kawasaki oil. I used Rotella from 2001 until 2012 until the same guy that owned the Mobil oil company I worked for opened a KTM/Kawasaki dealership where I buy my oil. You are not changing my mind and I am not changing yours, so have fun on your dirt bike. :ride:

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So I was under the impression that zinc is the good stuff and the reason you can still put it in diesel oil is because of emissions. Is this incorrect?

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So I was under the impression that zinc is the good stuff and the reason you can still put it in diesel oil is because of emissions. Is this incorrect?

Zinc is used as a high- pressure boundary lubricant. The only purpose it serves is as a final line of defense against metal-to-metal contact should the oil film be lost. In that event the zinc acts as a sacrificial lamb so to speak, where the two metal surfaces shear against the zinc molecules instead of themselves. There are other additives that serve the same purpose, such as the previously mentioned molybdenim sulfide.

Zinc has been reduced in oils because it damages catalytic converters.

Edited by Chokey

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I worked for a Mobil oil distributor where I determined which oil fit the needs of the factories we served. From hydraulic fluids, diesel oils, to the oils they used in their company cars, I picked. So maybe I could have been called a researcher, but my actual title was manager. Mobil (and most of the plants we served) are out of this area and I am a principal in an elementary school now. You echoed what I said about the companies blending the oils specific and you also are using what I said I would use (Rotella) if I didn't use Kawasaki oil. I used Rotella from 2001 until 2012 until the same guy that owned the Mobil oil company I worked for opened a KTM/Kawasaki dealership where I buy my oil. You are not changing my mind and I am not changing yours, so have fun on your dirt bike. :ride:

I say what I do about oils for our engines based on years of doing UOA testing. Motorcycle specific oils generally don't perform any better than automotive oils, some of them perform worse.

Never tested any Kawasaki branded oil though...

Edited by Chokey

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I have a 13 and use full synthetic 5w40 works great I'll probably switch to amsoil. If in hotter climate is go with Lucas but I live in mt and Lucas is like cold molasses here lol

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What does "works great" mean?  

eg. Easier than shifting than some other oil? Better clutch feel?  Cam lobes look good after 100 hard hours? Less metal pieces in the used oil?

So many people say some oil works for them, but what does that mean?

Edited by numroe

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I think (know) that some oils break down quicker, but I change mine about every 3-4 hours anyway so that is not a factor. I use Kawasaki oil because it's easy for me to get and cheap as Rotella T because of my shop discount, but I would use Honda Yamaha, etc oil in my KX450F in a heartbeat.

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What does "works great" mean?  

eg. Easier than shifting than some other oil? Better clutch feel?  Cam lobes look good after 100 hard hours? Less metal pieces in the used oil?

So many people say some oil works for them, but what does that mean?

 

 

Most people have absolutely NO factual reasons beyond cost, availability, marketing hype, or "so-and-so told me it was good" for the reasons why they use whatever oil they use.

 

I've chosen the oils I use based on 40+ years of tearing down engines and observing the results, and on doing UOA testing.

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Most people have absolutely NO factual reasons beyond cost, availability, marketing hype, or "so-and-so told me it was good" for the reasons why they use whatever oil they use.

 

I've chosen the oils I use based on 40+ years of tearing down engines and observing the results, and on doing UOA testing.

You are 100% correct. The best oil as far as break down that we ever found after testing was Mobil 1 synthetic. Castrol GTX also tested well. I used to use the Mobil 1 in the engine part of my CRF450 that has the transmission separate from the engine. I used the Honda trans oil (looks just like ATF) in the transmission.

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