Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  

XR680R Electric start only... Battery questions..

Recommended Posts

OK, I have a XR680R motor in a custom chassis quad frame. Entire frame was hand built and the only mistake was not *quite* getting the kickstarter to clear the footpeg mount. This was of course discovered after the chassis was built and it seemed just fine. However as I soon discovered this motor needs ALL of the kick travel to get started. As it is now it gets maybe 80% of the travel before it hits the chassis. So, when I built this you could still get the Baja Designs E-start kit and the supplied battery didn't work for very long at all. I went with a larger 230CCA 13ah battery meant for a 650cc quad. It helped but I could still run it down, and of course would leave me stranded hoping for a pull start. I got bit by the UTV bug and into storage my ungodly expensive project bike went.  Fast forward to now, and I want to solve the problem.

 

AGM batteries have gotten very mainstream and the LiFePO4 batteries have made great strides as well. lots of Googling and lots of Youtube video's later (including the thread here on TT about batteries) and I still feel confused as to what to do. A LiFePO4 battery would go in the battery box I have and give me  530CCA. but they don't rate AH in hte same way so not sure if that is the way to go or not. Odyssey AGM for the same size would give me only 150CCA but their Pulse cranking amps are 460. 

 

I could fab up a new box and go with a bigger AGM battery (500CCA, 1100PCA) to equal the LiFePO4 battery.  That would mean the fab work and 28lbs + the box fab hanging off my subframe... 

 

Would any one of you care to give me any feedback on this? I would be really appreciative... 

 

Heres a link to the Off-Road.com story on my build if you want to take a closer look: http://goo.gl/2hMlZw 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I have a XR680R motor in a custom chassis quad frame. Entire frame was hand built and the only mistake was not *quite* getting the kickstarter to clear the footpeg mount. This was of course discovered after the chassis was built and it seemed just fine. However as I soon discovered this motor needs ALL of the kick travel to get started. As it is now it gets maybe 80% of the travel before it hits the chassis. So, when I built this you could still get the Baja Designs E-start kit and the supplied battery didn't work for very long at all. I went with a larger 230CCA 13ah battery meant for a 650cc quad. It helped but I could still run it down, and of course would leave me stranded hoping for a pull start. I got bit by the UTV bug and into storage my ungodly expensive project bike went.  Fast forward to now, and I want to solve the problem.

 

AGM batteries have gotten very mainstream and the LiFePO4 batteries have made great strides as well. lots of Googling and lots of Youtube video's later (including the thread here on TT about batteries) and I still feel confused as to what to do. A LiFePO4 battery would go in the battery box I have and give me  530CCA. but they don't rate AH in hte same way so not sure if that is the way to go or not. Odyssey AGM for the same size would give me only 150CCA but their Pulse cranking amps are 460. 

 

I could fab up a new box and go with a bigger AGM battery (500CCA, 1100PCA) to equal the LiFePO4 battery.  That would mean the fab work and 28lbs + the box fab hanging off my subframe... 

 

Would any one of you care to give me any feedback on this? I would be really appreciative... 

 

Heres a link to the Off-Road.com story on my build if you want to take a closer look: http://goo.gl/2hMlZw 

Take look at this post. And one of the guys has a quad done with XR motor

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/970471-how-to-fix-xr650l-motor-mods-starter-problems/?hl=%20how%20%20to%20%20fix%20%20xr650l%20%20motor%20%20mods

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I know the biggest problem with battaries on XR650R was that they didn't charge enough, I think it was because the battary needs about 14.3V DC to charge and the baja designes kit gave less, like 12V

So it won't change much if you'll be using a more expensive battary until you fix the voltage output  :)

Do you have a multimeter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, 24V starting ... what a concept! with my relatively low compression motor (10.25:1) but that seems like that adds a fair amount of complexity, and then the issue MCVL brings up with not enough voltage to charge? I do have a XR's only CDI and Spectrum 200W stator though, not sure how that impacts things? Would the higher voltage harm the starter at all? The BD E-start kit starter looks pretty dang beefy. Not sure what they used but it does look automotive based, so maybe that would not be a concern. I have considered a mid sized Odyssey AGM battery, the PC925, its only 20lbs and has 900PCA and 330CCA - That might do it too, so as is typical I'm even more confused...  Sigh... 

 

Oh and yes, I could add a 2nd battery and run the 2 as 12V I understand that gives me about 80% more amps if I have read correctly on all the battery stuff I have read up on. 

Edited by Jaybo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, 24V starting ... what a concept! with my relatively low compression motor (10.25:1) but that seems like that adds a fair amount of complexity, and then the issue MCVL brings up with not enough voltage to charge? I do have a XR's only CDI and Spectrum 200W stator though, not sure how that impacts things? Would the higher voltage harm the starter at all? The BD E-start kit starter looks pretty dang beefy. Not sure what they used but it does look automotive based, so maybe that would not be a concern. I have considered a mid sized Odyssey AGM battery, the PC925, its only 20lbs and has 900PCA and 330CCA - That might do it too, so as is typical I'm even more confused...  Sigh... 

 

Oh and yes, I could add a 2nd battery and run the 2 as 12V I understand that gives me about 80% more amps if I have read correctly on all the battery stuff I have read up on. 

First I have found out if you have problems starting and your starter is good and batterys are good charging system is good BTW with a 200watt stator I dont think output from stator and your reg/rec all checks that is not the problem. Think the estart kit (and with XRL) they have to use the smallest starter they can get away with! And most the time its barely makes it work. So the only way to give the starter a KICK IN THE ASS 24v. A starter is just a electric motor double the hp and speed of motor side benefit is amp draw is half that at 12v. 

And no it does not hurt starter well it could if say something is wrong in motor and you hold button too long you hurt starters when the winding start getting hot. And at 24v it will get hot twice as fast! You can do same damage at 12v by doing that! With 24v and a built XRL motor it will start in less than 1 sec! that will not even start to get starter motor warm. 

As posts from two and me are using the Antigravity Battery 4 cell batteries each battery is 16oz and you can put it in your pocket! Two of these batterys can fit on top of airbox on a XRL! 

 

http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/antigravity-batteries-ag401/

 

It might seem a little complex but not really just a couple more relays and wiring work

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I read completely through that thread - HairyJR's quad looks pretty sweet. He's obviously running a lot more compression than I am. The kickstarter on the BD E-start kit is huge - You can see it in this pic: http://sandsports.off-road.com/aimages/articlestandard/dunes/272006/353848/sideview.jpg so it's a big starter. Guess I'll have to look that thread over a bit more again tonight. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW with a 200watt stator I dont think output from stator and your reg/rec all checks that is not the problem. 

You can't know that for sure until you check the voltage with a multimeter :)

 

Just connect it to + and - of your battery when the engine is started and set it to check the DC V, then check the voltage with lights turned off, on idles and on about 3000rpm. A stock regulator was meant to run without a battery, it gave only 12V and I'm not sure the trailtech one was meant to be used with a battery, maybe a capacitor, if it's true then I would first try to find a regulator-rectifier guru and ask him to make the one that gives 14V on a 1 phase generator, something like this http://www.moto.com.ua/postphoto/150469_3.jpg and connect it to only 1 output of 2

But since the e-starter kits were gone I didn't realy look deep into that question, but I assume if your battery is running down quickly it means it doesn't charge but is under load because of lights which discharge it more than a few spins of a starter  :)

 

If you just want to ride sometimes without competing in Baja before making big changes again just use a separate battery for the starter and connect it to the first one only when you need to start the engine and the first one is dead already, you could even make another switch to connect it. This way your second battery will only be used to start the engine and will last longer, but you will have to charge them after a ride anyway or only the second one, so it wont solve the problem completely   :D

 

You could also try making a different shaped kickstarter, so that you would have a chance to start the quad whenever you need, but I don't see how to do it without compromising the right leg's comfort or reinstalling the right footpeg in a different place on the pics

 

P.S. 14.2-14.4V is the normal voltage of every car and a motorcycle with 3-phase generator, so your bulbs should be ok   :)

 

P.S.2 There are guys here that now it better: http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421789&page=91

Edited by MCVL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I read completely through that thread - HairyJR's quad looks pretty sweet. He's obviously running a lot more compression than I am. The kickstarter on the BD E-start kit is huge - You can see it in this pic: http://sandsports.off-road.com/aimages/articlestandard/dunes/272006/353848/sideview.jpg so it's a big starter. Guess I'll have to look that thread over a bit more again tonight. 

But check the charging system out first!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't know that for sure until you check the voltage with a multimeter :)

 

Just connect it to + and - of your battery when the engine is started and set it to check the DC V, then check the voltage with lights turned off, on idles and on about 3000rpm. A stock regulator was meant to run without a battery, it gave only 12V and I'm not sure the trailtech one was meant to be used with a battery, maybe a capacitor, if it's true then I would first try to find a regulator-rectifier guru and ask him to make the one that gives 14V on a 1 phase generator, something like this http://www.moto.com.ua/postphoto/150469_3.jpg and connect it to only 1 output of 2

But since the e-starter kits were gone I didn't realy look deep into that question, but I assume if your battery is running down quickly it means it doesn't charge but is under load because of lights which discharge it more than a few spins of a starter  :)

 

If you just want to ride sometimes without competing in Baja before making big changes again just use a separate battery for the starter and connect it to the first one only when you need to start the engine and the first one is dead already, you could even make another switch to connect it. This way your second battery will only be used to start the engine and will last longer, but you will have to charge them after a ride anyway or only the second one, so it wont solve the problem completely   :D

 

You could also try making a different shaped kickstarter, so that you would have a chance to start the quad whenever you need, but I don't see how to do it without compromising the right leg's comfort or reinstalling the right footpeg in a different place on the pics

 

P.S. 14.2-14.4V is the normal voltage of every car and a motorcycle with 3-phase generator, so your bulbs should be ok   :)

 

P.S.2 There are guys here that now it better: http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421789&page=91

 

OK, it really sounds like I need to check the charging system out and see just what it puts out. I really don't know if the stator was changed, so that may be the origin of my problems with battery in the first place. I did consider keeping a 2nd charged battery as a backup though. but as you said that means I have a couple batteries to recharge when I get back to camp. 

 

Holy crap, a 91 page thread!  sigh, like I need another late night of reading forums! :)  You guys have been really helpful though, and when I get back from a business trip next week it looks like I need to get the bike out of storage and start digging into it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The stator should have been changed on that bike with the BD kit.  I installed three kits on different XR650Rs when they were available (all on customer bikes, not my own) and IIRC the kits came with a rewound stator.  I am pretty sure that they came with a stator because I do remember keeping the stock stator and ignition cover off of one of the bikes for myself as a spare.  The massive starter that BD sourced for their kit (I think it was originally for a PWC?) really sucks some amps when starting the XR up cold and the battery that fit under the carb could barely, if it all, spin the starter when the engine was cold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought and installed a BD e-start kit on one of my XRR's, and I can tell you that my kit did not come with the 200w stator, although I bought one of the first kits they sold.  I also agree with eastreich in that I was rarely successful starting my bike with the e-start kit when the bike was cold, but once it was warm it was fine.  One trick I used was to get it spinning with the compression release and the clutch pulled to get maximum rpm, then let go of the compression release lever once it was spinning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The stator should have been changed on that bike with the BD kit.  I installed three kits on different XR650Rs when they were available (all on customer bikes, not my own) and IIRC the kits came with a rewound stator.  I am pretty sure that they came with a stator because I do remember keeping the stock stator and ignition cover off of one of the bikes for myself as a spare.  The massive starter that BD sourced for their kit (I think it was originally for a PWC?) really sucks some amps when starting the XR up cold and the battery that fit under the carb could barely, if it all, spin the starter when the engine was cold.

 

Yeah and it has been 7 years since I messed with it last. Looks like I need to dig into it... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Reply with:

Sign in to follow this  

×