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Anyone using lightweight battery?

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Is anyone using one of those super light weight batteries in their 250L?  

 

The battery on my TW200 seems to have bit the dust.. assuming the new CRF250Ls battery fits in ( i thinking it will.) i'm debating using it as an excuse to a new light weight one for the 250L :)   Has anyone tried one or have a recommendation?

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I've been happy with Ballistic Battery Evo2. I've had it on the bike for 1.5 years with no problems. I installed the 4 cell.... Weighs 0.9lbs and doesn't need a battery maintainer like the lead acid batteries do. Even if my bike sits for 6 - 8 weeks it cranks right up! I ordered mine from CRF's Only.

http://www.crfsonly.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/290_294/products_id/4631

Edited by Red Rider-
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Do you need a special charger for these or do regular ones do the trick?

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Do you need a special charger for these or do regular ones do the trick?

 

from the link ..... 

 

 

Most small displacement powersports vehicles use a battery that weighs almost 8 pounds. The Ballistic Performance Components 4 Cell EVO2 battery weighs less than a pound! That’s a 7 pound saving for less than $100! You would have to spend thousands on Titanium, Carbon Fiber and Magnesium to get that kind of weight savings. The 4 Cell model can easily start the CRF250X and smaller displacement CRF's.  For the CRF450X we recommend the 8 Cell model. The 4 Cell EVO2 is designed for use in multi-cylinder applications of less than 550cc and for 350cc and under single cylinder dirt bikes, scooters, and ATV’s There is no special charger required, but periodic balance charging the 4 or 8 Cell EVO2 with the EVO2 LiFePO4 Battery Charger will greatly extend the life of the battery.

  • 4 Cell for CRF250X, CRF250L, CRF230F, CRF230L/M, CRF150F
  • 8 Cell for CRF450X and larger displacment powersports equipment

Physical Size

  • 4 Cell 2.5" L x 2.5" W x 4.25" H, 0.9lbs
  • 8 Cell 4.5" L x 2. 3" W x 4.25 H, 1.8lbs

NOTE: Make sure you select the correct battery cell size for you needs.

Edited by gnath9
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Hell I might buy one just because it's this much better than stock.  

 

I will get one when mine gets tired ...  :thumbsup:

 

but then again now that I think about it ...  :thinking:  

dropping 7 lbs off the top might be enough to make a big difference on the trials when I am about to lose it or fall over in the technical stuff ....  :lol:

Edited by gnath9
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the biggest take a away I got with the whole lithium battery topic is the batteries are a hard case with a  bunch of individual cells hooked in series to each other to make the desired amps.Most of the manufacturers use the same size cells based on a battery industry standard and are mostly likely made in one of a handful of factories in china. Even US manufacturers use the chinese lithium cells. The cells purchased are quality checked (qc'd) and graded, better companies like Shorie, earth x, and who ever buy batteries that have past qc. The batteries you get from ebay and at dirt cheap prices use cells that don't pass qc but are still sold as is to who ever.

 

When looking for a lithium battery find one that has built in electronics to control over and under charging and charge balance between cells. I went with Earth X because they have focused heavily on designing a good battery management system that in theory is made here in the USA and when the cells die I should be able to cut it open and just replace the cells and re solder the controller for less cost then a new battery. They are really no different to power tool battery packs, just more juice. Look up online how to replace the cells of a power tool battery pack to get a basic idea how these lithium batteries are built. 

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Most of the manufacturers use the same size cells based on a battery industry standard and are mostly likely made in one of a handful of factories in china. Even US manufacturers use the chinese lithium cells.

 

Really. 

You are referring to A123 cells.  i'll skip the bit about made in China or usa. 

Some use pouch cells. (Or, at least, Shorai do.) Pouch cells are not A123 cells. 

 

better companies like Shorie, earth x, and who ever buy batteries that have past qc.

You mean Shorai. What makes you think they're better? 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

 

When looking for a lithium battery find one that has built in electronics to control over and under charging and charge balance between cells.

 

 

Charge balancing requires an RC type charger. It is not important with A123 cells. Only very few of the LiFePO4 bike batteries (automotive batteries) are designed for charge balancing. 

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I will get one when mine gets tired ... :thumbsup:

You are going to be waiting a long time. Haha

The original stock Yuasa battery in my other Honda is 5 years old and showing no signs of getting tired.

Edited by Positron007
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You are going to be waiting a long time. Haha

The original stock Yuasa battery in my other Honda is 5 years old and showing no signs of getting tired.

Thats what Iv found also with powersports batteries.  The stock one seems to last a long time ~5 years.  Then the replacements you buy after that only seem to last 1-3 years.

 

The Yuasa battery that came in the yamaha 4 wheeler I had lasted like 6 years.  And I never did a damn thing to maintain it.  It would sit all winter long in the semi-heated garage, for months at a time without starting and no tender.  Some summers Id only ride the thing a handfull of times.  That was the best battery I ever had hahaha!

 

Ill probably end up getting one of the Shorai's before my stock CRF battery dies, just for the nice weight savings.

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Really. 

You are referring to A123 cells.  i'll skip the bit about made in China or usa. 

Some use pouch cells. (Or, at least, Shorai do.) Pouch cells are not A123 cells. 

 

You mean Shorai. What makes you think they're better? 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

 

 

Charge balancing requires an RC type charger. It is not important with A123 cells. Only very few of the LiFePO4 bike batteries (automotive batteries) are designed for charge balancing. 

 

Cat,

 

You appear to be familiar with the A123's and LiFe cells. I used to run LiFe's in my RC planes because I had accidentally bought 3 of em from Hobbyking. I meant to buy the LiPo's but read the description wrong :facepalm: .

 

Anyhow, 

 

What do you know about the MaH capacity of the batteries in discussion here compared to the Pb batteries our bike comes stock with. My thought is the Shorai's and others do not have half the MaH capacity than that heavy bastard of a stock battery.

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Thats what Iv found also with powersports batteries.  The stock one seems to last a long time ~5 years.  Then the replacements you buy after that only seem to last 1-3 years.

 

The Yuasa battery that came in the yamaha 4 wheeler I had lasted like 6 years.  And I never did a damn thing to maintain it.  It would sit all winter long in the semi-heated garage, for months at a time without starting and no tender.  Some summers Id only ride the thing a handfull of times.  That was the best battery I ever had hahaha!

 

Ill probably end up getting one of the Shorai's before my stock CRF battery dies, just for the nice weight savings.

 

 

i am gonna tattoo a husband and wife (she is my son's bus stop crossing guard) for one of their quads...  its a 2001 honda 400ex...  it only needs a battery... guess where my crf battery is going and which one is getting a new light weight battery??? lol       :goofy:

 

i am gonna sell the quad though and buy me a SM set up....  and hopefully a good set of knobs for the stock rims... :ride:

Edited by eyeopenher
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Check the CCA of the ANTI-GRAVITY batteries what they say about it. And read some of the advrider thread, i think it's explained there. If i remember correctly, Shorai's claimed CCA or something was...kind of inaccurate.

i don't know much but what i know i learned from too much time on candlepowerforums and sometimes when they want to know about Lithium batteries they bring in the RC guys.

The ANTI-GRAVITY website is a good place to start. The 4-cell battery works fine on this bike (and someone here has got one, iirc) but the 6-cell one is more "secure" - and is still about 1/3 the weight of the original battery. There are two versions of each - the "racing" version and the...one in a housing that is similar size to the YUASA batteries (means there is some empty space in the housing)but the "racing" version is only a few grams less.) There are some brands...i can't remember now, but Anti-Gravity, very good sales service, and get it shipped quickly, and definitely back up their product. 
wrt Shorai, after reading some of the long advrider thread a while back, all the extensive and almost obsessive testing that guy did, and most of it i don't understand, but you can get the gist of it, Shorai is not so good. Some criticism of that testing was that he stressed it in ways that would not happen in "real life" but i think he made the point.

For some reason, Shorai used the plastic pouch type of cells, not A123.

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Check the CCA of the ANTI-GRAVITY batteries what they say about it. And read some of the advrider thread, i think it's explained there. If i remember correctly, Shorai's claimed CCA or something was...kind of inaccurate.

i don't know much but what i know i learned from too much time on candlepowerforums and sometimes when they want to know about Lithium batteries they bring in the RC guys.

The ANTI-GRAVITY website is a good place to start. The 4-cell battery works fine on this bike (and someone here has got one, iirc) but the 6-cell one is more "secure" - and is still about 1/3 the weight of the original battery. There are two versions of each - the "racing" version and the...one in a housing that is similar size to the YUASA batteries (means there is some empty space in the housing)but the "racing" version is only a few grams less.) There are some brands...i can't remember now, but Anti-Gravity, very good sales service, and get it shipped quickly, and definitely back up their product. 

wrt Shorai, after reading some of the long advrider thread a while back, all the extensive and almost obsessive testing that guy did, and most of it i don't understand, but you can get the gist of it, Shorai is not so good. Some criticism of that testing was that he stressed it in ways that would not happen in "real life" but i think he made the point.

For some reason, Shorai used the plastic pouch type of cells, not A123.

 

 

Soooo Cat, Ironically your post lead to me what the capacity of the stock motorcycle battery is. 

 

battery: YUASA YTX7L-BS 6Ah     ---- 6Ah(6 amp hours) which in RC land translates to 6000Mah. I am surprised the capacity is not any higher, I have Rc Airplane Batteries that are bigger in capacity! I have two 8000Mah battery for my big plane :)

 

Anyhow back to research.

 

The Antigravity  YTZ7-8 has a 9Ah capacity, which equals 9000Mah capacity. that is 30% more than stock, and still a weight savings. Plus a way higher CCA.

 

the Antigravity  YTZ7-4 has a 6 Ah capacity, which equals 6000Mah capacity. Dead even with the stocker, and a major weight savings.Plus a way higher CCA.

 

The Ballistic 8 cell Evo2  that CRF's only sells, comes in at 4.6Ah, which is 4600Mah. A 24% loss of capacity compared to the stocker. But but very light. Plus a way higher CCA.

 

Shorai leaves no mention to what type of cell it is, though Cat states they use a "plastic pouch type battery", I am not sure what this is or how to find out.

 

It is good to note that A123 cells are LiFePO4's, however its a proprietary blend and they get to call their batteries "A123"...

 

 

I have also figured out that these batteries are not the LiPo 's(Lithium Polymer), they are the LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries. Great batteries, slightly lower voltage per cell compared to LiPo, but these are the new up and coming for widespread commercial use because of all the benefits to them.

I would like to note that LiPo is a bit unstable if not cared for, catching on fire is not out of the question.

 

below is about the LiFePO4, (, Ballisitic, AntiGravity, etc..)

 

 High Performance —High theoretical capacity of 170mah/g and high practical capacity as high as 165mah/g
• Long Cycle Life: up to 2000 cycle life (8x of Lead Acid and 3-4x of Li-ion)
• Extremely Safe/Stable Chemistry: no explosion & will not catch fire under collision over charged or short circuit; hi thermal stability of phases up to 500C
• Long Service Life: Around 5~6 years
• Wide working temperature range: From -4 F to 150 F (-20 C–+70C)
• Flexible & Small Form Factor: 1/3 weight of lead acid and 64% of NiMH
• High Rate (Power) Capability
• Environmentally Friendly Non-toxic, non-contaminating and No rare metal
 
Now after this I have to go get one! Darn  :ride:
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Good info there.  So it sounds like the Shorai is not so great?  So you Lithium nerds, which battery would you choose for your CRFL?  Personally I would want one that is equal to, or greater than the capacity of the stock battery, but other than that I have no clue, dont know much about lithium batteries.  These batteries are already so light, I see no point in saving a few extra ounces and getting one that has less capacity than the stock 6Ah one.

 

It sounds like some of them dont ever need the "load balancing" that others do, if thats the case, that seems like the way to go, then you would never need any sort of specialized charger to load balance whatever brand of battery you have.  Any idea which ones never need the load balancing?

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i think never mind the charge balancing. if they're A123 cells - and so far we know, they are (or, really, the equivalent, same tech / copies of A123, or licenced manufacture) then according to what i understood from cpf, it's not an issue.  if you already had an RC charger that does it, then maybe look for a bike battery that has the connections for it. 

 

Yes, agree re the capacity and weight and so on.  there is someone on this forum with the smaller one, the 4-cell, and no problem, but better to be on the safe side. (and that too, as per Anti-Gravity's recommendation.)  and if you're going to add devices and you might want to charge phone or camera with it, better off with the bigger battery. (the equivalent of the original battery.) Yes, the weight reduction with the 6-cell is so much anyway. Also, with very low temperatures, there is something with these batteries, they need a bit of...uhh, they need to warm up by using the starter motor repeatedly - but unlike a lead-acid battery, that doesnt drain them, it kind of "wakes them up." 

 

I have also figured out that these batteries are not the LiPo 's(Lithium Polymer), they are the LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries. Great batteries, slightly lower voltage per cell compared to LiPo, but these are the new up and coming for widespread commercial use because of all the benefits to them.
I would like to note that LiPo is a bit unstable if not cared for, catching on fire is not out of the question.

 

yes, exactly. i've seen it on bike forums, someone comes saying oh dangerous Lithium battery etc - because they've read a bits and pieces but not enough to find out about the various types of Li batteries. 
(btw, i read all that stuff mainly because i was going to use rechargeable flashlight/torch batteries.) 

 

i'm sure there are thousands of people using Shorai, and no problems, but the sketchy or misleading claims or specs, and that extreme testing the guy with the advrider thread did...it was clear enough to me. 

One of my friends has been using 2 Ultrabatt batteries, local supplier, not very expensive, and he's pleased with them. 
 

It sounds like some of them dont ever need the "load balancing" that others do, if thats the case, that seems like the way to go, then you would never need any sort of specialized charger to load balance whatever brand of battery you have.  Any idea which ones never need the load balancing?

 

 

i think it's explained on the Anti-Gravity website - maybe in the FAQ. You can't use the battery tender type of charger that does desulfation, the "smart chargers" that have programs that iterate through cycles of charging and testing. iow, you don't leave it on a trickle charger, battery tender, over winter.  if there is no parasitic drain, they're good for 6 months or so with no charging. 

Biggest weight reduction after the exhaust, and it's also high weight, good for center-of-gravity. And many people say the bike starts quicker, less turning of the starter motor. 

Edited by Cat ji
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Good info there.  So it sounds like the Shorai is not so great?  So you Lithium nerds, which battery would you choose for your CRFL?  Personally I would want one that is equal to, or greater than the capacity of the stock battery, but other than that I have no clue, dont know much about lithium batteries.  These batteries are already so light, I see no point in saving a few extra ounces and getting one that has less capacity than the stock 6Ah one.

 

It sounds like some of them dont ever need the "load balancing" that others do, if thats the case, that seems like the way to go, then you would never need any sort of specialized charger to load balance whatever brand of battery you have.  Any idea which ones never need the load balancing?

Tro, I would choose The Antigravity  YTZ7-8 that has a 9Ah capacity. The Shorais just do not have any useful information on their product page and that is a turn off to me.

The Evo 2's on Crf's appear to be really nice batteries as well. Though neither one of them has as much capacity as the AntiGravity's.Cat turned me on to this Brand and they appear to be really good, since they use "stock" form factor shapes, and have high capacities I am motivated to go with that product.

 

     I do not know what the gig is about balancing these batteries. On my RC batteries I balance them every time, but that is how my charger works (must plug in balance plug) a bit overkill perhaps. It takes several hundred uses for a battery to become drastically out of balance. I would compare it to evening out your tire pressures on your car after every drive. It needs to be done, but not after every use. Over a period of time you can see a trend if one cell/or tire, is not performing correctly.

 

     Perhaps some of these batteries have internal balancers, or maybe because the batteries are constantly charging and discharging the balance is inherently maintained through that cycle. I don't know for sure. Also, maybe the other sides of the battery have the balancer port and the pictures do not show it.

 

De-sulfation & discharging-

 

     Desulfation is strictly for Lead Acid batteries and what it does is emit a frequency through the plates of a battery to dissolve sulfated acid on the plate via a slight external resistance being applied via a de-sulfation device. Doing this to the LiFePo4's would be destructive because the plates in these batteries are so thin (that's where the higher power output comes from due to faster electron transfer), the de-sulfation would destroy the plates and cause a dead short, not to mention you are treating for a chemical that does not exist in these batteries. The materials in LiFePo4 are very inert and would not react in the same way as the LiPo (lithium Polymer) batteries.

 

     Lithium Polymer batteries use synthetic (pissed off) chemicals that produce higher energy per gram, and when those plates shred up, the two materials react and cause a very powerful exothermic reaction, producing lots of heat, and catching on fire from so much heat. I would not listen to anyone who says the lithium Ions designed for our motorcycles are dangerous, they use inert chemicals! LiFePo4! This brings me to my next point as to why we balance cells, the only time a li-ion (with multiple cells) is at risk is when cells are very out of balance, cause then one cell can be taken well below its operating voltage while the battery still reads good cause another cell is providing the high enough voltage measurement.

     

     All my friends, including myself use LiPo in our Rc's because of how beastly of a battery it is, but we have to care for the battery really well in order to be safe. We balance charge them, store at room temperature, and don't allow them to go dead. Allowing any battery to go dead causes the lead acid battery equivalent of sulfation (build up on the plates) which blocks electron transfer, is corrosive on the plates, and with these high performance batteries, causes the thin plate to be deteriorated beyond restoration. This would be a good time to point out the advantage of lead acid, they take abuse better than any higher performance battery because the lead plates are so thick in comparison to our LiFe and Lipo equivalents. And this is why Deep cycle lead acid batteries are tougher yet, they are bigger, and have THICK plates to withstand abuse of being ran all the way down and suffering through the period when the battery is dead and the acid it etching on those plates.

 

 

~Brent

Edited by wheresbrent
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