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Yamaha and Ktm. The only true 2t 125's out there remaining?.

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Honda,Suzuki and kawasaki all had great 125's. in 2006 Honda got rid off all two strokes and up until you hit the 250 and 450 class all of honda's bikes are basically crap. Except the crf150r and rb minibike class.

 

Suzuki why did they get rid off the rm125?. 

 

A big dissapointment was Kawasaki getting rid off the kx125. kawasaki has great potential in the racing industrie.

Their starting to introduce more riders in the 4t world saying that their better.

 

Anyone know why Honda,Suzuki and Kawasaki got rid off the legendary 125 2t's?. :ride:

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Honda believes that there are still many years of development left in 4 strokes. The simple fact is, Honda never liked making 2 strokes, but because that is what the market wanted in the 70's, 80's and 90's, thats what they made. I don't think Honda will ever make 2 strokes again. I know it's sad. 

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Only KTM, Honda and Yamaha are large enough companies to manufacture two separate lines of bikes for the same purpose, two-stroke and four.

 

Kawasaki and Suzuki are too small for the economies of scale to work for them. Hell, American Suzuki is under bankruptcy protection now as it is.

 

I would suspect that the only reason Yamaha continues to sell two-strokes is because the tooling has long since been amortized and they are just racking in profits on them now.

 

Honda has publicly stated that they will never build another two-stroke engine. They even replaced their 85cc two stroke with a 150cc four-stroke, something none of the other companies has done. They all still sell 85cc two-strokes except Honda.

 

Kawsaki actually came out with an all-new 85 this year to compete with the KTM.

Edited by Chokey

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Only KTM, Honda and Yamaha are large enough companies to manufacture two separate lines of bikes for the same purpose, two-stroke and four.

 

Kawasaki and Suzuki are too small for the economies of scale to work for them. Hell, American Suzuki is under bankruptcy protection now as it is.

 

Honda has publicly stated that they will never build another two-stroke engine. They even replaced their 85cc two stroke with a 150cc four-stroke, something none of the other companies has done. They all still sell 85cc two-strokes except Honda.

 

Kawsaki actually came out with an all-new 85 this year to compete with the KTM.

 

kinda have to disagree that those are the only three companies that are large enough to produce a two and four strokers for the same purpose. beta, gas gas, husky, husaberg and Tm have been doing it for some time. just an FYI

Edited by smv ryder
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Only KTM, Honda and Yamaha are large enough companies to manufacture two separate lines of bikes for the same purpose, two-stroke and four.

 

Kawasaki and Suzuki are too small for the economies of scale to work for them. Hell, American Suzuki is under bankruptcy protection now as it is.

 

I would suspect that the only reason Yamaha continues to sell two-strokes is because the tooling has long since been amortized and they are just racking in profits on them now.

 

Honda has publicly stated that they will never build another two-stroke engine. They even replaced their 85cc two stroke with a 150cc four-stroke, something none of the other companies has done. They all still sell 85cc two-strokes except Honda.

 

Kawsaki actually came out with an all-new 85 this year to compete with the KTM.

Having worked for consumer product manufacturers (GM, Clorox) I can tell you that no responsible company would ever continue making a product because the "tooling has been amortized."  Further, capital investments at established companies are usually paid for in cash, not amortized.  Yamaha still sells 125 2ts because people are wiling to buy them at a price point that yields what they consider a reasonable profit.

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kinda have to disagree that those are the only three companies that are large enough to produce a two and four strokers for the same purpose. beta, gas gas, husky, husaberg and Tm have been doing it for some time. just an FYI

 

 

Of those you mention, only TM builds both two-stroke and four-stroke MX bikes that compete directly against each other. And TM is no longer selling in the United States, so it doesn't matter what they build, we can't buy it.

 

Husky was absorbed by Husaberg. Husabergs and Huskys are now KTMs with different plastic. KTM is the largest motorcycle manufacturer in Europe, and the sixth largest in the world.

 

Beta and Gas Gas don't build MX bikes, two-stroke or four. The off road market in Europe is much larger than the MX market. 

 

Beta does not build any two-strokes that compete directly with their own four-strokes. They build a 250 and 300 two-stroke, and 350, 400, 450, and 498cc four-strokes. None of these run in the same class, like a 125T/250F or 250T/450F.

 

Gas Gas does have some overlap of models like KTM does, and they follow the same business model of building niche machines. They and KTM are making a success of small-batch production because neither of them have the enormous overhead of a company like Honda. But to put things in perspective, KTM sold 100,000 motorcycles last year. Honda sold over 1.5 million. Even Harley, the fifth largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, sold almost 250,000, far more than KTM. KTM is profitable only because it's small enough to have low overhead, but large enough to have the engineering expertise to build high quality products.

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Not to get too far off topic, but how come Honda was the only one to make an aluminum framed 125? Or two stroke in general?

Did any other major brand make an aluminum framed bike for a year or at least try it in a prototype?

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Having worked for consumer product manufacturers (GM, Clorox) I can tell you that no responsible company would ever continue making a product because the "tooling has been amortized."  Further, capital investments at established companies are usually paid for in cash, not amortized.  Yamaha still sells 125 2ts because people are wiling to buy them at a price point that yields what they consider a reasonable profit.

 

 

M point is that the engineering and tooling costs for the YZ two-strokes have long since been paid for, since the bikes haven't changed in nearly ten years. So they are highly profitable for Yamaha, especially since the price for those unchanged models has risen dramatically in those same ten years.

Not to get too far off topic, but how come Honda was the only one to make an aluminum framed 125? Or two stroke in general?

Did any other major brand make an aluminum framed bike for a year or at least try it in a prototype?

 

 

Both the YZ 125 and 250 have aluminum frames.

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What would be better is if they just added aftermarket parts already on it, like TM does, to make it worth buying. It's only a matter of time before sales die off and they eliminate it entirely.

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Of those you mention, only TM builds both two-stroke and four-stroke MX bikes that compete directly against each other. And TM is no longer selling in the United States, so it doesn't matter what they build, we can't buy it.

 

Husky was absorbed by Husaberg. Husabergs and Huskys are now KTMs with different plastic. KTM is the largest motorcycle manufacturer in Europe, and the sixth largest in the world.

 

Beta and Gas Gas don't build MX bikes, two-stroke or four. The off road market in Europe is much larger than the MX market. 

 

Beta does not build any two-strokes that compete directly with their own four-strokes. They build a 250 and 300 two-stroke, and 350, 400, 450, and 498cc four-strokes. None of these run in the same class, like a 125T/250F or 250T/450F.

 

Gas Gas does have some overlap of models like KTM does, and they follow the same business model of building niche machines. They and KTM are making a success of small-batch production because neither of them have the enormous overhead of a company like Honda. But to put things in perspective, KTM sold 100,000 motorcycles last year. Honda sold over 1.5 million. Even Harley, the fifth largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, sold almost 250,000, far more than KTM. KTM is profitable only because it's small enough to have low overhead, but large enough to have the engineering expertise to build high quality products.

 

 

edit..not trying to start a pissing match.. 

how does KTM have a low overhead? explain? you must work for KTM or one of the major manufactures to know this? or you just like all of us keyboard racers?

Edited by smv ryder

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I'm sorry, I thought it was implicit that 125Ts and 250Fs, and 250Ts and 450Fs, compete directly against each other in the same class. I didn't realize it needed to be stated.    :excuseme:

Edited by Chokey

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I'm sorry, I thought it was implicit that 125Ts and 250Fs, and 250Ts and 450Fs, compete directly against each other in the same class. I didn't realize it needed to be stated.    :excuseme:

 

 

what about the 100cc 105cc 144cc 200cc 300 cc 2 strokers and the 300cc 400cc 500cc 4 strokers.. they just have to be in thin air for a class and can't compete against anything??

they have to be a 125t/250f 250t/450f to be apart of the cool crowd to be accepted?

Edited by smv ryder

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I think KTM has such low overhead since they build only motorcycles and the X-Bow, and are extremely successful at what they do, making it so they turn far more profit than their expenses, allowing them to be able to innovate everything they build.

With the other manufacturers, they make pretty much everything, but also lose a lot of money, or at least more than KTM in various departments, like Suzuki might not sell enough motorcycles, as a result, they're risking bankruptcy. Honda could completely stop producing any motorcycles and four wheelers, and not make a dent in their profits, due their large profits from their small engines and cars, which they make a very large profit from.

KTM has no other risks in the market, besides motorsport sales, and they are steadily rising, so they can do as they wish, with low overhead.

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what about the 100cc 105cc 144cc 200cc 300 cc 2 strokers and the 300cc 400cc 500cc 4 strokers.. they just have to be in thin air for a class and can compete against anything??

 

 

Except for Vet classes, do 200cc two-strokes compete in the same class as 500cc four-strokes?

 

Didn't think so.

 

You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. There are all sorts of different engine sizes for both engine types, but the bread and butter of the Japanese companies with two-strokes was 125cc and 250cc, which run in the same class as 250cc and 450cc four-strokes. They don't want to make a 250cc two-stroke that is going to take sales away from their more profitable 450cc four-strokes.

 

Yamaha does it because the money they get for their two-strokes is now all profit, since there are no longer any engineering or development costs associated with those models. And they can sell every one they make, because they no longer have to compete against anybody but KTM in that market. Of course, if the YZ125 and YZ250 weren't also excellent bikes, they would have gone away just like the other Japanese 125s and 250s.

 

This is a silly discussion. Companies make the product that they believe will earn them the highest profit. Currently, the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers believe that is four-stroke MX bikes. If they thought two-strokes would be more profitable, that's what they would build.

Edited by Chokey
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I think KTM has such low overhead since they build only motorcycles and the X-Bow, and are extremely successful at what they do, making it so they turn far more profit than their expenses, allowing them to be able to innovate everything they build.

With the other manufacturers, they make pretty much everything, but also lose a lot of money, or at least more than KTM in various departments, like Suzuki might not sell enough motorcycles, as a result, they're risking bankruptcy. Honda could completely stop producing any motorcycles and four wheelers, and not make a dent in their profits, due their large profits from their small engines and cars, which they make a very large profit from.

KTM has no other risks in the market, besides motorsport sales, and they are steadily rising, so they can do as they wish, with low overhead.

 

 

I agree. And add to that, motocross bikes are not highly profitable. In fact most motorcycle dealerships are kept afloat by ATV sales.

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Except for Vet classes, do 200cc two-strokes compete in the same class as 500cc four-strokes?

 

Didn't think so.

 

You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. There are all sorts of different engine sizes for both engine types, but the bread and butter of the Japanese companies with two-strokes was 125cc and 250cc, which run in the same class as 250cc and 450cc four-strokes. They don't want to make a 250cc two-stroke that is going to take sales away from their more profitable 450cc four-strokes.

 

Yamaha does it because the money they get for their two-strokes is now all profit, since there are no longer any engineering or development costs associated with those models. And they can sell every one they make, because they no longer have to compete against anybody but KTM in that market.

 

This is a silly discussion. Companies make the product that they believe will earn them the highest profit. Currently, the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers believe that is four-stroke MX bikes. If they thought two-strokes would be more profitable, that's what they would build.

 

 

Your a rockstar in the MX world.. can't argue with you. 

you must read a lot of mags.

enjoy...

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what about the 100cc 105cc 144cc 200cc 300 cc 2 strokers and the 300cc 400cc 500cc 4 strokers.. they just have to be in thin air for a class and can't compete against anything??

they have to be a 125t/250f 250t/450f to be apart of the cool crowd to be accepted?

 

http://d14mx.com/rules.php

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M point is that the engineering and tooling costs for the YZ two-strokes have long since been paid for, since the bikes haven't changed in nearly ten years. So they are highly profitable for Yamaha, especially since the price for those unchanged models has risen dramatically in those same ten years.

Both the YZ 125 and 250 have aluminum frames.

Really? They always looked like steel frames to me, except they do look hydroformed, so I shoulda known they were aluminum.

I wonder what a steel framed modern four stroke would be like lol.

Probably vibrate itself apart after awhile...

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Really? They always looked like steel frames to me, except they do look hydroformed, so I shoulda known they were aluminum.

I wonder what a steel framed modern four stroke would be like lol.

Probably vibrate itself apart after awhile...

 

the 2005 YZ 125/250 were AI framed

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