xr200, no first gear?

[xjma]

So recently I put a new clutch in my brothers 96 XR200R.  The clutch is working great, however, after re-assembling the bike, it is now impossible to get it into first gear. It feels like it is shifting, but it won't go into first.  It is also tough to get it into neutral, really tough. 

 

I am wondering if I messed something up when I did the clutch or could this be the common shift star worn out on the XR??  Any advice is appreciated, thanx!!

[KTM520EXC]

First question, did it work ok before installing new clutch ???

If so, my educated guess is you put the washer that secures the clutch in backwards, there is a specific side that it needs to be installed.

Also check the free play on the shifter shaft, there is going to be some play, but if it is really excessive, you might have address a different problem. Also pull on the shifter towards you and try shifting to see if it gets better, if it does that would indicate a worn shifter plate, which is the weakest link, as it takes the most abuse.

Michael

[Old School Al]

First question, did it work ok before installing new clutch ???

If so, my educated guess is you put the washer that secures the clutch in backwards, there is a specific side that it needs to be installed.

Also check the free play on the shifter shaft, there is going to be some play, but if it is really excessive, you might have address a different problem. Also pull on the shifter towards you and try shifting to see if it gets better, if it does that would indicate a worn shifter plate, which is the weakest link, as it takes the most abuse.

Michael

 

 

 

 How exactly will the clutch washer backwards cause this?  When you say backwards, do you mean flipped over...........or in the wrong place?  Why would this affect only first gear..........as the clutch itself affects all gears?

 

Old School Al

Edited May 31, 2014 by Old School Al

[KTM520EXC]

Hi OSA,

I mean flipped over, there is a designation on that particular washer that states "outside". Potentially xjma installed backwards.

Only from my own experience which defys all mechicanical logic did I state it would effect "only 1st gear". From my own experience that the clutch and shift star and the shift plate all intertwine to work as a unit. Case in point, per Chuck's EBC kit recommendation I replaced my clutch in my 87, fibers, steels, clutch springs the whole shabang to eliminate the screeching in my clutch, which btw it worked. Any rate, I tested in my neighborhood, everything was good, went through all 6 gears seamlessly. Took 'er up to the mountains and alas, I had all these false neutrals, gear selection was a challenge in all gears, including first. I adjusted the clutch cable several times, and alas it all went away and all was good. It could have been just breaking in, dunno and yes, I soaked the fibers.

I guess my point is that the XR200, at least in my IMHO is very sensitive to minute' changes. Other than an old Hodaka Ace I had, only my 02 KTM520 EX/C had a worse clutch/gear engagement than the XR200. When I went to a Rekluse autoclutch on the KTM, problem solved.

Any rate, my point is if the washer was installed with the "outside" mark in, vs. out, it could impact first gear only. That washer has a slight concave curve to it. xjma has not stated whether or not the bikes clutch worked fine before, so that is still undetermined factor.

I don't know if I answered your question, just stating my experience.

Michael

Edited June 1, 2014 by KTM520EXC

[Old School Al]

Hi OSA,

I mean flipped over, there is a designation on that particular washer that states "outside". Potentially xjma installed backwards.

Only from my own experience which defys all mechicanical logic did I state it would effect "only 1st gear". From my own experience that the clutch and shift star and the shift plate all intertwine to work as a unit. Case in point, per Chuck's EBC kit recommendation I replaced my clutch in my 87, fibers, steels, clutch springs the whole shabang to eliminate the screeching in my clutch, which btw it worked. Any rate, I tested in my neighborhood, everything was good, went through all 6 gears seamlessly. Took 'er up to the mountains and alas, I had all these false neutrals, gear selection was a challenge in all gears, including first. I adjusted the clutch cable several times, and alas it all went away and all was good. It could have been just breaking in, dunno and yes, I soaked the fibers.

I guess my point is that the XR200, at least in my IMHO is very sensitive to minute' changes. Other than an old Hodaka Ace I had, only my 02 KTM520 EX/C had a worse clutch/gear engagement than the XR200. When I went to a Rekluse autoclutch on the KTM, problem solved.

Any rate, my point is if the washer was installed with the "outside" mark in, vs. out, it could impact first gear only. That washer has a slight concave curve to it. xjma has not stated whether or not the bikes clutch worked fine before, so that is still undetermined factor.

I don't know if I answered your question, just stating my experience.

Michael

 

 

 How would a washer involved in no more than securing the center clutch hub to the main shaft affect shifting into only first gear...............or any gear for that matter?    The earlier engines in this engine family retained the center clutch hub with only a snap  ring.  Clutch problem affecting shifting is clutch drag.  Clutch is not fully  disengaging........... usually this is improper adjustment on a motorcycle clutch. 

 

As for the clutch problems you speak of, a properly set up 200 used correctly won't have any of those problems at all.  I'm very familiar with the Hodaka Ace 100................clutch is on the end of the crank before gear reduction, which has some negative effects.  OSJ's XR218R ran it's entire trail riding/racing life with nothing more than a set of HD springs (stock plates) and worked flawlessly in every condition he threw at it. (Check out the racing and results thread.)

 

Old School Al

Edited June 1, 2014 by Old School Al

[KTM520EXC]

<<As for the clutch problems you speak of, a properly set up 200 used correctly won't have any of those problems at all>> I agree.

<<OSJ's XR218R ran it's entire trail riding/racing life with nothing more than a set of HD springs (stock plates) and worked flawlessly in every condition he threw at it.>> Yes we are all proud of Jeff's accomplished racing career on the 218.

Just waiting to here back from xjma, to see if he has more data to share before advising him on how to fix his XR200R. His description was vague, so just throwing out a possible incorrect clutch installation, it happens.

Side note, best clutch ever for me, YZ250F, like butter, second is the KDX220, very close to YZ250F.

Michael

[Chuck.]

Best clutch for me is a Montesa 315R, but it has CR250R plates (steel & friction), is hydraulic operated, and runs synthetic ATF.

Worst clutch is a friends Montesa 4RT with OEM plates and oil; it is grabby and shudders, IMO he needs to install the CR250 plates.

 

Honda owns Montesa and both engines are Honda 250 5 speed designs; the 315R a case reed 2T and the 4RT an EFI 4T, so they share some parts with other Honda models, or other model parts will fit such as the clutch plates.

 

I wish the 200s had such a good clutch but it is size constrained by its heritage. Have said that I've always had at least one XR200 since 1981 and never had a clutch problem but shimmed each spring with a spark plug washer.  Installing new frictions and HD springs fixed my 218 clutch.

 

Back on topic:

[Old School Al]

<<As for the clutch problems you speak of, a properly set up 200 used correctly won't have any of those problems at all>> I agree.

<<OSJ's XR218R ran it's entire trail riding/racing life with nothing more than a set of HD springs (stock plates) and worked flawlessly in every condition he threw at it.>> Yes we are all proud of Jeff's accomplished racing career on the 218.

Michael

 

 

 

Actually what I was attempting point out here was the "200's" clutch career.....................not the riders career.  Way to much Internet Expert BS on this subject floating around at times. ?

 

Old School Al

[xjma]

Hi guys, sorry for the delayed response, broken computer, yada yada, and thanx for the responses so far. 

 

The bike had sat for approx 5 years before the clutch went.  When I say went, it worked fine after bringing the bike back to life, maybe a tiny bit of slippage, but not bad, and then a 200#+ experienced rider trying to keep up with two modded 450s on the power lines blew the clutch, as in, it worked, and then all of a sudden in a mud hole, nothing.  Bike ran, shifted, clutch didn't do jack, no noises, but no go no matter what gear it was in - permanent neutral.  I think that the clutch sitting for so long half in oil must have weakened the fibers and under the abuse it just shat the bed, 100%, all at once.  There was no fiber on any of the plates when I took it apart, zero.  Replaced fibers and plates and went with heavy springs as well.  Clutch is now engaging fine, no complaints with it at all.

 

The shifter is sloppy.  I think it was sloppy before the clutch failure, but to the limited extent I personally rode it, it did shift into first alright.  It did like to find neutral during shifting.  Now it is very hard to find neutral, and basically impossible to get 1st.  My brother found neutral once....I have given up trying.  It was originally owned by an inexperienced rider, and since it's been brought back to life after sitting for so long, it's been ridden by first time riders and experienced riders alike, the town bicycle if you will.  It's fun to have a bike around that you can let friends ride and come along with the group. 

 

The shift shaft did have a bunch of lateral movement with the clutch cover off, not sure if it got misaligned or what?  My guess is that it may be the shift plate/star issue but would like to get a little more confirmation before buying the parts and taking the clutch cover off, again!  Thanx

Edited June 14, 2014 by xjma

[KTM520EXC]

xjma,

 

it sounds like the typical shift star & shift plate replacement is in order. 

 

When you replaced the clutch, did you service the clutch hub fingers, i.e. remove all the notches out with fine emery paper, 600 grit, etc... ???

 

If not, while you are in there that would be the first thing I would do. 

 

I would also take Chucks advice for installing spark plug washers as well, wish I would have done that on mine and will do it when the opportunity presents itself. 

 

Oh ya, just out of curiosity when you disassemble, confirm the bevel washer was installed correctly, i.e., showing "outside" on washer. 

 

Regards, 

 

Michael

[xjma]

Sorry for the long delay, but I'm back!!  I don't have a working computer at home, and I have other priorities, ya know.  Thanx again for all the imput, much appreciated.

 

Michael, I did not hit the hub fingers (or ears as I call em) with emory cloth, but I will this time!!

 

So despite the lack of first gear, I gave the 200 to my brother so he could have friends come riding with him.  He on a souped up RMZ450, and a very inexperienced new 200+ lb rider following.  He had a few successful rides and on the third day out, after getting up a nasty hill climb on his bike, the friend in tow smoked the brand new clutch!!  So, I get to do it all over again!!

 

I am 99% positive that I have all the washers labeled "this side out" in the correct orientation.  going to buy the parts for the shift repair. 

 

Question, what will I need to pull the outer clutch basket off??  Should it come off easily, it's been a while since I pulled one off.  Thanx again for everyone's help!!

 

Marty

[KTM520EXC]

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0015/

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MP-OIL-CLUTCH-SPANNER-HONDA-/231115824881?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35cf939ef1&vxp=mtr

 

You'll need it to remove oil rotor and clutch hub, use a penny "wisely" as a wedge to keep the gears from moving forward. 

 

I use an electronic impact driver, so that makes it "so much easier". 

 

Michael

[xjma]

Anyone have a link to the parts I need for the shift star and shift plate replacement??  Thanx!!

[Chuck.]

Item 6 & 10.  use the TT store. Put blue (medium) Locktite on 15 when you put it back together.

 

https://www.thumpertalk.com/shop/oem/images/Honda/1996/Motorcycles/KT04E1500.gif

 

Edited September 25, 2014 by Chuck.

[xjma]

Damn Chuck, if I didn't just ask for my hand to be held then I'd be scared, JK!! 

 

Thanx for the explicit advice!!! 

 

Seems pretty easy. Wish I fixed this (or knew that this needed to be fixed) the first time I did this clutch!! 

[DRZNorCalTouring]

HI , Just did the shift star /shift plate replace on my 2000 xr200 due to shifting issues. I tried going through the gears to test and find nuetral ( clutch etc still not installed) . It only seems to shift thru 3 gears and can't find nuetral. I then found another post saying NOT to try shifting unless engine is running! Argh. What to do now before I reassemble everything with new gaskets, etc??? Is there a way to verify correct SS/plate installation before I put everything back together? Thanks!!!!

[Chuck.]

HI , Just did the shift star /shift plate replace on my 2000 xr200 due to shifting issues. I tried going through the gears to test and find nuetral ( clutch etc still not installed) . It only seems to shift thru 3 gears and can't find nuetral. I then found another post saying NOT to try shifting unless engine is running! Argh. What to do now before I reassemble everything with new gaskets, etc??? Is there a way to verify correct SS/plate installation before I put everything back together? Thanks!!!!

 

Not really a way to test for shifting issues but I always shift thru all gears to verify everything is together correctly.  You can do some of that when the tranny is in the left case, and again after adding the left case.  The cases should close completely with no force and all shafts should be free of binding. 

 

Many have suggested changing the star wheel and shift plate during a rebuild because it is a common failure point and it is easiest to do at that time.  I've avoided doing that on my own engines if shifting was OK. However I've been burned on engine rebuilds for engines I didn't know the history, the last one worked for about 2 months before shifting problems. 

[KTM520EXC]

Raise bike on stand and "you should be able to go through all 6 gears up and down".

 

Move rear wheel forward slightly after each shift, make sure you hear it click. 

 

If you don't move rear wheel, it will not engage properly. 

 

Tried this method, it works. 

 

If it doesn't, you might have transmission issues that need to be dealt with. 

 

Michael