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Yet another starter idler shim question

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I just opened up my '06 left side to do the loctite fixes. This bike has never been serviced, oil changes only. I bought it from the original owner last month with 1600km on it. 

 

The parts for the starter idler gear were in this order:

 

engine - shim - circlip - gear - shim - case

 

I know the "recommended" order is 

 

engine - shim - circlip - shim - gear - case

 

but I'd like to know *why*. I'm old enough not to trust everything on the internet. :devil:  Clearly, this bike was assembled from the factory with the shim between the case and the gear. Why should I change this?

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Well,something happened then.The "recommended" order is the correct factory assembly order.The Suzuki factory service manual has many errors in it and this is one of them.When I performed my loctite fixes my motors were correctly assembled just like the recommended illustrations in the FAQ and not as is illustrated in the manual.The article in the FAQ is there to avoid confusion when using the Suzuki manual because of the errors contained in it. 

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So the order it was assembled at the factory AND the service manual are incorrect? I can 100% confirm this motor has never been apart before, and it was assembled as illustrated in the diagram posted by Black_DRZ.

 

See why I'm confused? Who came up with this alternative assembly order as correct, and WHY is it correct?

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Another thing for me that differs from the diagrams is that the gear isn't "two piece" nor does it have a section in the middle that has a groove or anything, its one deep gear.

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Well,something happened then.The "recommended" order is the correct factory assembly order.The Suzuki factory service manual has many errors in it and this is one of them.When I performed my loctite fixes my motors were correctly assembled just like the recommended illustrations in the FAQ and not as is illustrated in the manual.The article in the FAQ is there to avoid confusion when using the Suzuki manual because of the errors contained in it. 

I stand corrected and a little confused.

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I would trust the FAQ info over the Suzuki manual , the Manual has errors .

 

And.. the factory also assembled some bikes wrong? That's my issue. I'd trust the FAQ if I knew:

 

1. Why and who decided the manual was wrong

2. Why my bike came from the factory in this same wrong fashion.

 

I'm not asking for people's opinions on what I should do, I can make up my own mind. I'm asking why the FAQ suggests doing something that the manual and the factory did differently.

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Another thing for me that differs from the diagrams is that the gear isn't "two piece" nor does it have a section in the middle that has a groove or anything, its one deep gear.

 

I have an early "E" motor and the gear has a gap machined into it, the later versions eliminated the extra machining process.  IMO, I'm sure that they decided to just save a little cost and eliminate the gap, either version works the same and there was no reason to justify updating the diagram.

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Just before I left for work today I looked at the assembly.. There is the evidence that the shim's inner diameter is larger than the shaft if placed outside the gear. So it does "fit better" with the shim's both beside the circlip, however, that steel gear will definitely be rubbing against the case without the outer shim which just seems wrong. I have until tonight to make up my mind lol.

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So.. no other ideas or pros / cons to assembling this the factory vs the recommended way? I'm putting it back together tonight.

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So.. no other ideas or pros / cons to assembling this the factory vs the recommended way? I'm putting it back together tonight.

 

No offense, but did you read the FAQ on the stator loc-tite fix? If you did, you should have come across this:

 

 

 

This is an edited pic from the service manual... This picture shows the recommended placement for the two shims used with the starter idler gear. One shim on either side of the circlip. The manual and parts fiche shows one shim on the motor side of the gear.. that is wrong. If placed there, often what you'll find is the shim broke and in the motor, or stuck to the stator magnets.

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/548456-stator-and-starter-clutch-loctite-fix/

 

If that doesn't answer your question then I would ask E.Marquez directly, send him a PM http://www.thumpertalk.com/user/18676-emarquez/

 

Hope this helps  :thumbsup:

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Well, I thought I was pretty clear about having read everything. Yes, I realize it says that. I realize there is an FAQ, made by someone I don't know, that states to assemble the shims in a different order than the factory assembled it and nobody seems to know why, other than quoting the FAQ.

 

Thanks, I'll shoot him a PM.

 

I think I already stated this, but I like knowing WHY I'm doing something before I do it.

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Well, I thought I was pretty clear about having read everything. Yes, I realize it says that. I realize there is an FAQ, made by someone I don't know, that states to assemble the shims in a different order than the factory assembled it and nobody seems to know why, other than quoting the FAQ.

 

Thanks, I'll shoot him a PM.

 

I think I already stated this, but I like knowing WHY I'm doing something before I do it.

 

The bolded part is the reason why it should be assembled the recommended way and not the way in the manual. 

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The bolded part is the reason why it should be assembled the recommended way and not the way in the manual. 

 

Mmm, no, that's not the question I asked. I didn't ask what would happen... OK, lemme try again differently.

 

Why did Suzuki ship my bike with the shims on the outside of the gear? Were bikes assembled improperly from the factory? Has Suzuki acknowledged this mistake?

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Clearly, this bike was assembled from the factory with the shim between the case and the gear. Why should I change this?

So the order it was assembled at the factory AND the service manual are incorrect? I can 100% confirm this motor has never been apart before, and it was assembled as illustrated in the diagram posted by Black_DRZ.

 

See why I'm confused? Who came up with this alternative assembly order as correct, and WHY is it correct?

I'm not asking for people's opinions on what I should do, I can make up my own mind. I'm asking why the FAQ suggests doing something that the manual and the factory did differently.

 

You asked why it should be assembled the "recommended" way at least 3 separate times, that is the question I was trying to answer for you.

 

I understand that there was a second part to your question, and I do not know the answer. That is why I suggested you ask E.Marquez…..

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I just opened up my '06 left side to do the loctite fixes. This bike has never been serviced, oil changes only. I bought it from the original owner last month with 1600km on it. 

 

The parts for the starter idler gear were in this order:

 

engine - shim - circlip - gear - shim - case

 

I know the "recommended" order is 

 

engine - shim - circlip - shim - gear - case

 

but I'd like to know *why*. I'm old enough not to trust everything on the internet. :devil:  Clearly, this bike was assembled from the factory with the shim between the case and the gear. Why should I change this?

Your bike was factory assembled.. The Factory manual lists the same order your bike was assembled.

All that is somewhat common... though we have seen the shims in a non factory manually assembly method as well.. from a known OEM assembled bike. 

Finding one of those shims ripped in half due to the way they are installed sometimes at the factory is also common. The shim gets bound up between the moving components and the case, and destroys itself. 

Installing the shims in the order recommended here protects the components and eliminates the somewhat common destruction of the shim. 

the choice is yours..

 

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So they were shipped from the factory both ways? Crazy.

 

Is the purpose of the shim to protect the circlip? Or just give the assembly the proper depth?

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