13 transmission 3rd to 4th problem

[nesc103y]

It looks like the 13 suffers from the same 3rd to 4th gear problems the older FI bikes did.

I was hopping with the beefier gears in the 13 Honda would have worked that out.

At 58 hours ours is starting the false neutral trick. And progressively getting worse.

 

I like to have all the parts ahead of taking the motor apart when I do a rebuild, but I lost my notes on the offending gears.

Pisses me right the &%$#@! off

Edited June 2, 2014 by nesc103y

[Eddie8v]

Happened to me once this weekend, hope it's not the beginning of the end...

[matte]

I thought it was just me. My '13 has the same issue, very finicky shifting from 3rd to 4th, hits a false neutral if I'm not very deliberate when making the shift. Really sucks because you absolutely live in 3rd and 4th on these bikes for moto. When you take it apart, please post back what parts are worn/damaged and what the issue is. Worn engagement dogs? Something else?

[pieplatesnductape]

Almost makes me want to find a nice yz or 250 sx while I can still unload my crf with clear conscience.

[Eddie8v]

It's only happened to me this one time, ever, over all the bikes I have had. I know a lot of fast(er) guys that don't have any issues. Maybe I just missed the shift.

[nesc103y]

I thought it was just me. My '13 has the same issue, very finicky shifting from 3rd to 4th, hits a false neutral if I'm not very deliberate when making the shift. Really sucks because you absolutely live in 3rd and 4th on these bikes for moto. When you take it apart, please post back what parts are worn/damaged and what the issue is. Worn engagement dogs? Something else?

 

I've repaired a number of older bikes. Its always the engagement dogs that get rounded.

But its hard to say if that happens because the shaft bushings loosen or if the bushings get loose because of the hammering the gear takes while its between gears grinding. either way they get replaced. I just cant remember if its the main shaft gear set or if its the counter shaft gear sets.

[Jeff@bigborethumpers]

Bigborethumpers.com offers an undercutting service. 2-5 undercut for $465 and your issues would be gone. 

[moto867]

Keep an eye on the shift drum also. Ive seen a few chip where the fork rides in the groove

[nesc103y]

Keep an eye on the shift drum also. Ive seen a few chip where the fork rides in the groove

 

I've heard of that as well but never seen it in any of the trans I've serviced.

[nesc103y]

Bigborethumpers.com offers an undercutting service. 2-5 undercut for $465 and your issues would be gone. 

 

Hey Jeff how is that accomplished?

The cut has to be very precise on each surface.

The very early Elsinore 125's used to have trans issues, and I remember undercutting the gears by hand with a dremel.

At that time I was in my early 20's and quite clueless not aware of what I didn't know.

But it actually worked!

[Jeff@bigborethumpers]

Yea now its all done like magic on machines and the precision is crazy. We have been doing it for like 40 years on all the drag and road race dikes. Big help. 

[EnglertRacing]

I've repaired a number of older bikes. Its always the engagement dogs that get rounded.

But its hard to say if that happens because the shaft bushings loosen or if the bushings get loose because of the hammering the gear takes while its between gears grinding. either way they get replaced. I just cant remember if its the main shaft gear set or if its the counter shaft gear sets.

5th gear on my 09 only enguaged 0.115".

Rounded.

The shift drum locked into 5th and then the highly rounded dogs thrust it out of gear. Bang broke the shift fork and chipped the shift drum.

I machined 0.050" off the front of 5th gear and made a 0.050" spacer to go behind it.

Makes for .165" enguagement. And a 450x detente spring. No problems yet.

The 450x detente spring feels more real BTW.

And I heard somewhere here that gp teams were moving 3rd gear over a bit.

Kinda bound to round the dogs when they enguage less than 1/8"

[bluetaco]

Good info, Mine hits false neutral between 2nd and 3rd but only after shes been running for awhile (30+ min).

[GimpIndustries]

I had my transmission WPC coated and have never had an issue. Not only does it shift like butter, but never a single false neutral.

[Shawn_Mc]

Ive been less than impressed with the Honda transmission lately. Ive got a 3rd and 4th gear set that were almost new, but third started to chip out on the drive face of the teeth like the material was porus or something. It shifted ok, but it shed material like crazy. Draining the oil was like watching a Christmas parade with all the sparkles. The drive dogs look fine, just the teeth were bad. Both on the (main shaft) side. The counters looked ok, which I couldnt hardly believe for the damage to the drive set...but they got replaced too. This was an 07 for what its worth.

 

Im pretty sure those gears are final machined from powdered metal blanks. Maybe they arent hitting the gear hard enough when they heat the powder on those sets. Whatever reason, it shouldnt happen in the first place.

[nzgsr]

For anyone that has fixed the 3rd to 4th false nuetral issue, id be interested to know exactly what cogs you had to replace and were they main/counter shaft or both. Its takes awhile to get parts cheaply here in NZ, and id rather not have it out of service for too long.

[fraser]

Damn,

 

Not missed any gears yet. Whereas my '10 YZ450 used to do it all the time between 2 and 3 causing me to crash on doubles etc. Hated it for that.

[Shawn_Mc]

For anyone that has fixed the 3rd to 4th false nuetral issue, id be interested to know exactly what cogs you had to replace and were they main/counter shaft or both. Its takes awhile to get parts cheaply here in NZ, and id rather not have it out of service for too long.

 

Its safest to replace them in sets. I always do.

[frankdecrosser]

3th and 4th are main shaft. It's always the dogs that are rounded off, and I had similar Issue Shawn described, -some kind of crater in one tooth- 2 times in a row with my '12 at exactly the same spot.

Obviously a production fault but of course Honda states they never heard of, or seen such Issue before.

Furthermore I don't think coating or undercutting dogs will save you from getting a false neutral now and then. I wonder if this false neutral - usually between 3th and 4th- is a Honda only Issue.

Maybe this is because 3th has to travel the longest distance -along the main shaft- to engage 4th.

 

At this moment I am struggling with my '14 clutch. I cannot seem to keep it from slipping a little bit at some points of the track. I installed 4 heavvier springs from my '12 bike but the clutch has a 'vague' feel, never know if it slips or not.

Always used 15W50 in previous bikes with little Issues. Change back to 10W40 I guess.

[nesc103y]

For anyone that has fixed the 3rd to 4th false nuetral issue, id be interested to know exactly what cogs you had to replace and were they main/counter shaft or both. Its takes awhile to get parts cheaply here in NZ, and id rather not have it out of service for too long.

 

 

Here's what I replaced. The gears in the photo's represent part numbers 8, 9, 10, & 15 in the image below. When I rebuild these I also replaced the bushing - I think that's what starts the failure as the gears start to rock on  the shafts. They become sloppy in the cogs.  The bushings are 7, 11, 14, 16.