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Noob supermoto questions?!

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Hey guys, really could do with some basic advice.......I have searched but maybe my questions are obvious and hence no one has posted such stupid questions. embarrest.gif

Bike in question is a crf450r on an '04 plate.
Recently purchased with the intent of making it an SM bike.

I realise that just putting road wheels and tyres doesn't make a true SM.

So that's where I'm confused.........I'm expecting a delivery of some SM wheels tomorrow, hopefully they will bolt straight on.

The next thing is over sized brake discs, braided ss lines and an upgrade to the standard M/C.

My question is suspension related for now, unless I have issues putting the wheels on.

Do you lower the overall ride hieght? Or do you guys go for an aftermarket shock...I really have no idea?
Front end..........to make a true SM bike, again I read somewhere, someone lowering the front end.
How did he accomplish this, did he change the internals, revalve, or just dropped the forks through the yokes?
I'm posting this at the risk of sounding like a dumbass but am really in the dark.

Thanks for any advice in advance and apologies if these obvious questions have been asked before!

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Hey guys, really could do with some basic advice.......I have searched but maybe my questions are obvious and hence no one has posted such stupid questions. embarrest.gif

Bike in question is a crf450r on an '04 plate.

Recently purchased with the intent of making it an SM bike.

I realise that just putting road wheels and tyres doesn't make a true SM.

So that's where I'm confused.........I'm expecting a delivery of some SM wheels tomorrow, hopefully they will bolt straight on.

The next thing is over sized brake discs, braided ss lines and an upgrade to the standard M/C.

My question is suspension related for now, unless I have issues putting the wheels on.

Do you lower the overall ride hieght? Or do you guys go for an aftermarket shock...I really have no idea?

Front end..........to make a true SM bike, again I read somewhere, someone lowering the front end.

How did he accomplish this, did he change the internals, revalve, or just dropped the forks through the yokes?

I'm posting this at the risk of sounding like a dumbass but am really in the dark.

Thanks for any advice in advance and apologies if these obvious questions have been asked before!

 

Well you can lower the suspension but I don't.  Actually my ktm is running the MX suspension right now and has been doing really well.  My RMZ i sent off the suspension and had it custom valved for SM.  It really depends on what you want to do with the bike and how it acts.

 

Putting 17s on the bike makes it a supermoto but you can spend a lot more.  The main thing that happens when you go to a 17" front from a 21 is that you loose a little rake and a lot of trail.  most guys run lower offset triple clamps(say stock is 21-23mm offset they will go down to 14mm offset or so).  The amount of offset depends on a few things like if you are running a shorter swing arm or not.....

 

If you are just getting into the sport and want to hit the track I would put 17s on it, run a 310 or 320 front rotor and keep your stock caliper and master cylinder for now.  Upgrading will give you better braking BUT if you are just starting out the stock stuff will be okay as long as you have good pads and good fluid.  I know guys that run the stock MX stuff(even rotor) and like the feel.  I run a 6 piston caliper and radial master cylinder on my bike.  My last bike had a Braking caliper and a Magura 295 master.

 

if the SM rims are for your model bike they should bolt right up.  You might have to remove your lower chain guide and/or modify it so you have flat head screws on the inside(mx setup usually has a nut and that can hit your rim during install).  Other than that its pretty straight forward. 

 

If you are going to the track make sure you know what is required at your local track.  Sliders, catch cans, safety wire etc.

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REALLY appreciate your input buddy, that's a great help!

 

Yea just starting out on these bikes, so it's most certainly better than me right now.

 

Will, as you say, leave the suspension right now and concentrate on the brakes.

 

 

Not sure in the UK, they're so tight on scrutineering bikes for track days here, have done a few on an SRAD 600 but has no lock wire, or have never had anyone give it the once over..........I do fnd that strange and abit scary!

 

Once again, thanks for chiming in buddy..I'm sure I'll have some more questions in the near future ;):thumbsup:

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Most track days dont usually require safety wire(here in the US) but racing organizations will require at least any bolt that has fluid behind it to be safety wired.  There are a few things on my bike that I couldnt get safetywired(ktm drain plug on the bottom of the motor) that I use RTV on.  That usually passes tech.

 

Just be sure and double check your local track to be sure.  It would suck to show up and not be ready!  Good news is you really only have to do the setup work once!

 

Have fun!

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I'm actually pretty sure they don't check............honestly not once have they checked.

 

Got the wheels on and as you said, no issues, as they were model specific.

 

I still have so many questions to ask but sitting in front of this computer screen, my minds drawn a blank....lol

 

Here's a few pics.....glad to a member of this community and what seems to be a very well informed one.....cheers!

 

20140607_143333.jpg

 

20140607_135128.jpg

 

20140607_143320.jpg

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Looks great!  How hard was it to get your tax disc/mot over there on an MX bike?

 

Our track doesnt check for track days, but its on your honor.  Trust me you don't want to be the guy that crashes and dumps fuel all over the track.

 

Chain looks a bit tight in your pic fyi.

 

Keep an eye on your front brake line/speedo pickup line.  I run my brake line inside the rim like that but a lot run them around the outside.  The mounting point on your fork guard is placed for a 21" rim.  Just don't want to see either your brake rotor or rim catch your brake line.  You can see on my suzuki i ran it outside cause of clearance, but on the ktm i ran it inside cause it lined up fine.

 

10629817493_89f8ded3c8_b.jpg

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So glad I joined this site...what's obvious to you, I was just concerned about.....but that was all.

 

Will re route the lines...yea in that pic the chain was tight.it was dark and I just wanted the wheels on.have adjusted correctly now, thanks for the info!

 

Your bikes look great buddy but why 2 of the same type of bike? I guess if you can, why not lol

 

Yep...for sure I DON'T want to be "that guy," who spills oil, or fuel, or indeed loses a nut, or bolt on track but honestly, in the few track days i've done, they've NEVER checked but I do go over the bike, for my own, piece of mind.

 

Once again, thanks for chiming in.

 

OK...one thing I've noticed is the hesitation on part throttle........it's NOT supposed to do that, right?

Does have a full titanium fmf exhaust, so guessing cos' of that, it's running lean.....also pops, on deceleration and have been told, flames come out the back.

Can i rectify this, by simply changing the height of the needle, or would I need to change pilot, or main jets?

 

Once again, thanks in advance for any guidance!

 

Oh, forgot to answer your question.....I actually bought the bike road legal, so have no idea what paper work is involved but do know kits are available to get them road legal, which i'm sure you already know......cheers!

 

Can I ask what hand guards you're using?

Edited by Armi

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 I hate to do this but damn, here it goes, I will toss out there that Supermoto specific Suspension not only is a bit shorter but also WAY STIFFER than MX suspension. This is due to being mainly on asphalt where you don't want that much travel as it can cause issue on braking and accelerating from APEX out. But does really depends on the rider as well as I ride/race with a guy who went back to full MX Suspension.

 

 On my KTM it has SM suspension and I run my triple at 18mm offset with a 10mm shortened swing arm and works PERFECT! Definitely get the Catchcans done. The safety wire depending on your track you can get away with a dab of Silicone on the drain bolts here in Murica.

 

 I run Cycra Probend hand guards and they have held up well in crashing :D

10370440_722954797750221_601996378765261

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That's just the kind of well informed suggestions I was after Debi............why hate lol

 

I actually like no nonsense advice, don't need my ego massaged at all :thumbsup:

 

Will look into getting the catch cans..will also look into the hand guards......thanks!

 

TBH I got this bike to improve my riding skillset...was actually gonna get a k5 1000 but I wanna be able to back a bike in,, like you guys/ahem girls :jawdrop:

 

Is there a how to back it in thread on here? :facepalm:

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That's just the kind of well informed suggestions I was after Debi............why hate lol

 

I actually like no nonsense advice, don't need my ego massaged at all :thumbsup:

 

Will look into getting the catch cans..will also look into the hand guards......thanks!

 

TBH I got this bike to improve my riding skillset...was actually gonna get a k5 1000 but I wanna be able to back a bike in,, like you guys/ahem girls :jawdrop:

 

Is there a how to back it in thread on here? :facepalm:

 

 It's not easy to do without a Slipper Clutch as there is lots of clutch control involved ;) Yes I have a Slipper Clutch hehe. But it's not always the fastest way but it is sweet looking lol.

 

 Here's is this, hope it helps :D

 

 http://www.racerxvt.com/article/supermoto---back-it-in

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Backing it in,.......... to me is poetry in motion :ride:

 

Thanks for the link Debi..it seems this site, is the one for me. :thumbsup:

 

I will start practicing..............love how they say backing it in, is a by product of good bp, hard braking and leaning it over, while feathering the clutch, just as getting your knee down is lol

 

I used to try to get my knee down before, now it just happens, cos' of good bp.......now to master the art of backing it in..........cheers Debi!!!

 

Slipper clutch will be on the shopping list, once I've mastered the basics :thumbsup:

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So a few more things to chime in for you.

 

Suspension, Debi is spot on BUT i was told during an SM school that the MX suspension can actually help make you smoother/faster.  The reason is because you have to be smoother on the brakes and gas.  I do plan on getting my suspension done BUT it works really well for me as is so its lower on my list. 

 

2 bikes, well i had the RMZ450 for about a year and wasn't real happy with the handling.  I bought the KTM to build.  I took the RMZ and the KTM to the track.  The RMZ for the last time and the KTM for the first time.  After riding them back to back I sold the RMZ:)  Now i have 2 nearly identical ktm450s.  One for SM and one for dirt.  I also have a 250 but it is for sale.

 

I don't currently have a slipper in the KTM but it is next on my list.  The KTM has a hydraulic clutch and it makes it harder to 'feel'.  My RMZ had a slipper(STM) but i didnt like it.  I will be going with the KTM hardparts slipper they use in the SMR or a hinson BTL.  The STM is good but expensive to setup because each spring change is nearly $100 and it only comes with one.  I could also feel 'chatter' through the clutch lever.  Even when backing it in i would still use the clutch.

 

Backing it in really does come with speed.  if you try to force it then you are doing it wrong.  Once you start driving deeper into the turns going past your brake markers and start trail braking the back end will naturally slide out.

 

For your carb issue.  Does this happen when part throttle and you crack into it?  If it is fine with a smooth roll on and only happens when you crack the throttle open I would look into your Accelerator pump.  Could be a timing issue(there is a little screw adjustment for when the "squirt" happens just below where your cables hook to the carb), or the size of your leak jet.  There are several companies out there that make Accelerator pump covers and mods to help with this bog/stumble.  The cheapest is outlaw racing.  Their AP cover is about $30usd.  There are others out there in the $130 range that have a screw adjustment for the leak jet.  The leak jet is located in your float bowl and it feeds the AP.  There is a Carb/FI forum on TT here that is probably a better place to get more suggestions on carb tuning.  I have dealt with about 5 or so FCR carbs(actually rebuilt one tonight for a yz250f) but don't claim to be an expert.

 

Handguards, I also run Cycra Probend.  i went with these for the little plastic piece that goes on the ends for extra crash protection.  I ate through some aluminium(spelt correctly for you ;)) zeta guards on my rmz.  There are also SM specific handguards with a similar setup.  Acerbis makes them.  When i need another set i will be going with those.

 

http://www.motocrossgiant.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=0635-0744pu&click=989&gclid=CM6rm73W674CFYMSOgodeRoA3A

 

You can really run anything you want.  I also like to add bar end sliders too.  I have SME brand but they are out of business.  Just some Delrin stock with a countersink on the end will do.

 

Here were my RMZ ones.

 

9176801243_cfe600a280_b.jpg

 

DSC_0118_zpsd45837ef.jpg

 

For a catch can on my ktm i run the UFO one.  It works for gas and coolant, then i route my case vent into my airbox for any oil that gets spit out.  You can see the black lines from my carb going forward to the catch can.  It has one port for coolant, 2 for gas, and then some ones that stay open to vent.  Each chamber has a drain screw as well.  It would be nice if it were translucent but just drain it after a crash and you will be good. 

 

No slipper

KTMVIRTurn1_zps0735205d.jpg

 

No slipper-my first supermoto and my second track day

306409_10150369556272659_721137658_86761

 

slipper

IMG_1730.jpg

 

 

The big, back end stepped out dragging peg type slides look great and i wish i could do them!  Mine are just a product of speed.  The drz one i think i was trying too hard, the other two just happened.  All those are in the same turn and down 2 gears for me.  I was backing in the drz on my first track day BUT ill be honest, i was doing it on the street in parking lots on dual sport tires before i ever went to supermoto :)

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Thanks for all the info guys/gals.

 

I'm taking it all on board :thumbsup: ......I'll keep the suspension, as is for now and get to know the bike and myself on the bike........I smile every time I sit on her :)

 

Bikes look GREAT sir!!!, as do you, backing it in....love that shit lol

 

I have the Acerbis hand guards but when I put them on, it won't fit through my front door.........NO WAY am I leaving her outdoors for some low life to nick :naughty:

 

Was looking up catch cans on ebay but nothing really came up for me :(  just filters seemed to come up?

That's another thing...I don't know what after market brands are good........normally for the srad, I'd type in SRAD/HARRIS, or yoshi and see what i fancied buying.

But with the crf, I have NO clue....alot of RFX stuff came up but I read on someones post, they were shit.......Never even heard of the branded catch cans you mentioned, or indeed the hand guards.

 

OK, the carb issue seems to be at part throttle...after a certain rev range, it will pull cleanly but it doesn't like it behind, say a car at 30mph, regardless, of how i twist the throttle.....to be honest though, it wot till I have to slow down :rolleyes:

 

Got some gear questions as well, if I may........Have always worn gear albeit for a sport bike.

Am I right in thinking the motocross pants have some kind of protection and you guys wear extra protection under the jersey?

Troy lee design gear HAS to be worn with extra protection, right?

I thought ONLY leather was best for asphalt?

 

The boots.....what's the difference between the sidi crossfire and trial boots?.......have they got sliders on the soles, or are you guys gently skimming the tarmac with your feet?

Shit now I really feel stupid asking the above question but you gotta start somewhere, right :rolleyes:

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Thanks for all the info guys/gals.

 

I'm taking it all on board :thumbsup: ......I'll keep the suspension, as is for now and get to know the bike and myself on the bike........I smile every time I sit on her :)

 

Bikes look GREAT sir!!!, as do you, backing it in....love that shit lol

 

I have the Acerbis hand guards but when I put them on, it won't fit through my front door.........NO WAY am I leaving her outdoors for some low life to nick :naughty:

 

Was looking up catch cans on ebay but nothing really came up for me :(  just filters seemed to come up?

That's another thing...I don't know what after market brands are good........normally for the srad, I'd type in SRAD/HARRIS, or yoshi and see what i fancied buying.

But with the crf, I have NO clue....alot of RFX stuff came up but I read on someones post, they were shit.......Never even heard of the branded catch cans you mentioned, or indeed the hand guards.

 

OK, the carb issue seems to be at part throttle...after a certain rev range, it will pull cleanly but it doesn't like it behind, say a car at 30mph, regardless, of how i twist the throttle.....to be honest though, it wot till I have to slow down :rolleyes:

 

Got some gear questions as well, if I may........Have always worn gear albeit for a sport bike.

Am I right in thinking the motocross pants have some kind of protection and you guys wear extra protection under the jersey?

Troy lee design gear HAS to be worn with extra protection, right?

I thought ONLY leather was best for asphalt?

 

The boots.....what's the difference between the sidi crossfire and trial boots?.......have they got sliders on the soles, or are you guys gently skimming the tarmac with your feet?

Shit now I really feel stupid asking the above question but you gotta start somewhere, right :rolleyes:

 

 

this is the UFO(same people that make MX plastics) that i use

 

http://www.motostrano.com/UFO-Supermotard-Catch-Tank-p/ac02086380.htm

 

You can make your own as well.  lots of guys do.  I ran a coolant catch can from APE and it worked well except the nuts were hot melted into the plastic and mine eventually started leaking.  I RTVd it up and ziptyd it after that.

 

there are a few "how tos" here.

 

http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?79923-How-to-make-a-catch-can-tutorial

 

 

 

For gear, i just recently got rid of my 1 piece suit and I am going 2 piece.  My 1 piece was for road racing and i had trouble getting my knees up.  I have some TLD speed gear SM pants(leather) and will be wearing knee brace/pads under them.  up top I have an MVD leather jacket on the way and TLD jerseys.  MVD makes great stuff but nothing fit me that was in the US and i got the TLD stuff cheap.  TLD used to make a supermoto leather/plastic jacket that went under the jersey but they haven't for several years.  There are a few 1 piece supermoto suits out there as well.  Lots of guys wear MX gear with something like the Alpinestar bionic jacket.  When i fall my hips and elbows hit first, then my hands.  If you want to go 2 piece MVD is the way to go if you can afford it.  You can make due with a 1 piece suit for RR. 

 

For boots i wear the Alpinestar tech7 sm boots.  They are stiff!  I have the 2014 Astar tech7 MX boot and its much better, but they wont be making a new version of the SM boot as far as i know.  I would go SIDI if i had to do it again.  They make a sidi SM boot based on the crossfire i think.  I started out wearing my old Tech5s and the soles wore down pretty quick. 

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I have the Acerbis hand guards but when I put them on, it won't fit through my front door.........NO WAY am I leaving her outdoors for some low life to nick :naughty:

 

 

I would trim the bars and put them on.  I've messed up a lot of levers in my day without good handguards.

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this is the UFO(same people that make MX plastics) that i use

 

http://www.motostrano.com/UFO-Supermotard-Catch-Tank-p/ac02086380.htm

 

You can make your own as well.  lots of guys do.  I ran a coolant catch can from APE and it worked well except the nuts were hot melted into the plastic and mine eventually started leaking.  I RTVd it up and ziptyd it after that.

 

there are a few "how tos" here.

 

http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?79923-How-to-make-a-catch-can-tutorial

 

 

 

For gear, i just recently got rid of my 1 piece suit and I am going 2 piece.  My 1 piece was for road racing and i had trouble getting my knees up.  I have some TLD speed gear SM pants(leather) and will be wearing knee brace/pads under them.  up top I have an MVD leather jacket on the way and TLD jerseys.  MVD makes great stuff but nothing fit me that was in the US and i got the TLD stuff cheap.  TLD used to make a supermoto leather/plastic jacket that went under the jersey but they haven't for several years.  There are a few 1 piece supermoto suits out there as well.  Lots of guys wear MX gear with something like the Alpinestar bionic jacket.  When i fall my hips and elbows hit first, then my hands.  If you want to go 2 piece MVD is the way to go if you can afford it.  You can make due with a 1 piece suit for RR. 

 

For boots i wear the Alpinestar tech7 sm boots.  They are stiff!  I have the 2014 Astar tech7 MX boot and its much better, but they wont be making a new version of the SM boot as far as i know.  I would go SIDI if i had to do it again.  They make a sidi SM boot based on the crossfire i think.  I started out wearing my old Tech5s and the soles wore down pretty quick. 

Thanks for the links buddy.........I may buy that catch can,.haven't looked at the "How to" yet but appreciate that too.

I was looking for the carb info.......but can't seem to find it.

 

I was completely in the dark guys.....thanks for pointing me in the right direction :thumbsup:

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I would trim the bars and put them on.  I've messed up a lot of levers in my day without good handguards.

You know I never thought of that......seems obvious now you mention it but thinking I might have to cut too much off.........whats the most you'd cut off?.....will cut little, by little.....cheers!

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Most of the stock pro tapers are 31.5"

I have 30.5" woods bars on my wr250x.  Some people go narrower than that.

You don't want to cut too much off and not have room for your levers and switches and stuff. 

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Most of the stock pro tapers are 31.5"

I have 30.5" woods bars on my wr250x.  Some people go narrower than that.

You don't want to cut too much off and not have room for your levers and switches and stuff. 

 

Roger that buddy.

 

Well whilst re routing the brake lines, Thankfully I did, as it was rubbing on the wheel :smashpc:

 

While doing so though....this broke :facepalm: .....err what is it...........I'm presuming it's a speed cable but it's just bots into the caliper....confused???

 

Pic of what I'm referring to;

 

20140610_192047.jpg

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Looks like a speedometer sensor.  You can probably get another one from Trailtech or whoever makes your speedometer.

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