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Blue smoke, hard cold starting. Need help with pictures. DRAGON!

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DSC_0038.JPGDSC_0039.JPGDSC_0042.JPGDSC_0045.JPGDSC_0046.JPGDSC_0048.JPG So two weeks ago bike was running great. Then washed it and changed oil. And was hard as hell to start after washing. What ev, Took it to the track next weekend was hard as hell to start. finally fired and blue smoke exits exhuast, freaked me out, shut it down, waited started again same thing, once it was warmed up it went away. okay, rode the rest of the day no more smoke would start 1st or second kick. Hmmm, checked valves, adjusted still hard to start once i got it started i didnt notice blue smoke but it was also at night time. decided after some reading to order new piston and rings. and disasssebled bike today. here are the pics. is the piston and rings the problem or something else. ps why the hell is there antifreeze on my cylinder wall and some was on top of piston.... =/ !!!  DSC_0037.JPG

Edited by tscoville

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attachicon.gifDSC_0038.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0039.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0042.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0045.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0046.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0048.JPG So two weeks ago bike was running great. Then washed it and changed oil. And was hard as hell to start after washing. What ev, Took it to the track next weekend was hard as hell to start. finally fired and blue smoke exits exhuast, freaked me out, shut it down, waited started again same thing, once it was warmed up it went away. okay, rode the rest of the day no more smoke would start 1st or second kick. Hmmm, checked valves, adjusted still hard to start once i got it started i didnt notice blue smoke but it was also at night time. decided after some reading to order new piston and rings. and disasssebled bike today. here are the pics. is the piston and rings the problem or something else. ps why the hell is there antifreeze on my cylinder wall and some was on top of piston.... =/ !!!  attachicon.gifDSC_0037.JPG

 

The coolant will get all over the place on disassembly if it isn't drained, so that doesn't bother me.  Based on your symptoms (losing oil and blue smoke, but smoke goes away when warm) I would suspect valve seals as a possible culprit.  The pics support this.  These are very easy to replace if you have a valve spring compressor.  

 

Here is one:  http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/989/16404/Tusk-Valve-Spring-Compressor?term=valve%20spring%20compressor

 

Now that it's all apart, it's probably a great time for a new piston and rings.  You can clean up that cylinder with WD-40 and green Scotch Brite to make your own little cross-hatch pattern.  I use Wiseco pistons and Tusk gasket kits (which come with the valve seals).  Never a problem.  Some have other opinions, which you should listen to.  I just haven't heard any compelling arguments against Wiseco or Tusk.  The place I buy all my stuff is Rocky Mountain, because you can shop for your specific machine, the prices are very good, customer service is outstanding, and you get discount codes and points, etc, which are cool.  Besides, they have Tusk stuff which, other than bars, I love.

 

I think you are going to be in good shape, just time for some maintenance. You are already halfway done!  Nice job with the pics.  That crap on top of the valves looks like oil dripping in there when it shouldn't be.  

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PS I see you already bought the piston and rings.  What brand and size did you get?

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I'm in a pinch and need bike by the 22nd so I went down to local japan dealer and ordered em stuff. If I had time or next time I'm thinking about vertex 13.9:1 kit for 220$ I really hope piston and rings fit snug. And Rocky Mountain won't ship to APO unless u like email them it's a complicated process compared to Motorsport and bto. But I guess I'll order new valve seals on Tuesday. And get here hopefully by Friday. So u think that's what's causing the blue smoke man. Not the piston and rings. The valve stems didn't appear wet at all when I was looking in there. And when I replace the valve seals I'll just use a magnet and socket and push down to get retainers out. And remove valves and friends.

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I'm in a pinch and need bike by the 22nd so I went down to local japan dealer and ordered em stuff. If I had time or next time I'm thinking about vertex 13.9:1 kit for 220$ I really hope piston and rings fit snug. And Rocky Mountain won't ship to APO unless u like email them it's a complicated process compared to Motorsport and bto. But I guess I'll order new valve seals on Tuesday. And get here hopefully by Friday. So u think that's what's causing the blue smoke man. Not the piston and rings. The valve stems didn't appear wet at all when I was looking in there. And when I replace the valve seals I'll just use a magnet and socket and push down to get retainers out. And remove valves and friends.

 

I do think it is the valve stem seals causing the smoke, based on your symptoms and the top of the valves in your pic.  Just remember to re-set the chain tensioner every time you pull it out (by removing the spring and pushing the ratchet all the way in) and do not over-torque the cam caps.  I am sure you know this, but I always reiterate it.  Also, clean that cylinder with Scotch Brite or equivalent and some solvent.  It should look like a mirror with little cross-hatches all over it at 45 degree angles.  It doesn't have to be perfectly 45 degrees, just enough so the rings seat.  

 

I use needle nose pliers to pull the old seals off.  Twist and pull.  The valve stems won't look wet, but the accumulation of carbon on your intakes is one clue, and the other is that your problem goes away when the bike is warm.  You could always just pop in the piston and not worry about the valves right now.  If you keep burning oil, you know why. Just add more, until you feel like changing the seals.  If you don't burn oil, you didn't waste time fixing something that wasn't broken.  Either way, let us know what you find.

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Good point thanks for the info, was planning on replacing seals while I'm there but I also don't have tool but like I said I think I can do it without one. But also the bike was a beast to start. So I'm really hoping the fresh piston and rings fixes that. Cuz I just had the head sent out and two new exhaust valves. And I just adjust valves but no dice as far as easier starting. But that could also be to fuel needing to be re delivered threw system since I had everything disconnected and drained slightly and it was late and already warmed up so couldn't test that theory. I also after tearing bike apart sprayed gov issue aircraft grade contact cleaner on all exposed connectors. ( maybe it will help idk but did it anyway ) I'm also debating on throwing new plug in there. Prob should I have two extra. But I'm also just a cheap a$$ so maybe I'll try and fire it with old one. And by old I mean two months on plug. I'll take pictures and document the build as much as time allows me.

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Also the picture with the valves showing, I don't have head in front of me now, I'm at work. But the smaller valves are intake? And the moisture on those two point to the valves that are leaking oil correct. So could I get away with just replacing those seals?

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DSC_0068.JPGDSC_0069.JPGDSC_0070.JPGDSC_0072.JPGDSC_0073.JPGDSC_0076.JPGDSC_0077.JPGDSC_0078.JPGDSC_0079.JPG

 

just took everything apart. thoughts? the oil seals for exhaust are made from metal while the intake ones are rubber. is that the norm or when my exhaust valves got replaced did they upgrade the seals? also does the white on my exhaust valves hint at running too lean? ive been meaning to map ecu for 5% more fuel just not on priority list. and i attempted at cross hatch scrubbing cylinder. i did it for a decent amount of time but no noticeable (scratches) do i need more is five min or so enough? I also scrubbed of excess gunk off intake valve shafts. ( not the bottom of any valve ) ps exhaust valves where dry and no gunked up debri just the intake (with the rubber seals) thanks

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attachicon.gifDSC_0068.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0069.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0070.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0072.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0073.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0076.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0077.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0078.JPGattachicon.gifDSC_0079.JPG

 

just took everything apart. thoughts? the oil seals for exhaust are made from metal while the intake ones are rubber. is that the norm or when my exhaust valves got replaced did they upgrade the seals? also does the white on my exhaust valves hint at running too lean? ive been meaning to map ecu for 5% more fuel just not on priority list. and i attempted at cross hatch scrubbing cylinder. i did it for a decent amount of time but no noticeable (scratches) do i need more is five min or so enough? I also scrubbed of excess gunk off intake valve shafts. ( not the bottom of any valve ) ps exhaust valves where dry and no gunked up debri just the intake (with the rubber seals) thanks

 

Hmm, never saw those red seals before, but I am sure they are out there.  The metal ones look familiar. As for scrubbing, I am surprised you can't get any pattern in there with green Scotch Brite.  I was thinking you could get those vertical lines out, too.  I've had those and the cylinder came out looking like a mirror.  intake valves are larger than exhaust valves and on the throttle side of the head.  Now that you have all the valves out, just replace all the seals.  

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Hmm, never saw those red seals before, but I am sure they are out there. The metal ones look familiar. As for scrubbing, I am surprised you can't get any pattern in there with green Scotch Brite. I was thinking you could get those vertical lines out, too. I've had those and the cylinder came out looking like a mirror. intake valves are larger than exhaust valves and on the throttle side of the head. Now that you have all the valves out, just replace all the seals.

Do you have any insight to as why its hard to start cold? once warmed it starts 1st or 2nd kick. i have spark and what seemed like compression ( didnt check it-no leak down tester ) its generally 60-90 degrees here in japan during summer. but i would always pull idle knob and find tdc and kick and repeat untill fire. but lately no dice. do you think it is a fuel delivery problem. or i was reading that possibly the capasitor wont hold a charge. so after you kick the hell out of it. it finally charges enough to give you adaquete spark. Like i said the last 3 times ive tried to start it it takes for ever and it will start to start maybe 2 seconds of fire and dwindle off. untill finally it catches and stays running. kinda at a loss. because i mean it WILL start just 10 minutes later of kicking.

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Fuel injected or carb on the bike ? Hard starting if compression is ok is a fuel problem. Had a bike that just changing the carb needle height by two setting would be hard if not impossible to start.

I would clean the carb well, and go from there, make sure you clean the air bleed jet .

Al

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Do you have any insight to as why its hard to start cold? once warmed it starts 1st or 2nd kick. i have spark and what seemed like compression ( didnt check it-no leak down tester ) its generally 60-90 degrees here in japan during summer. but i would always pull idle knob and find tdc and kick and repeat untill fire. but lately no dice. do you think it is a fuel delivery problem. or i was reading that possibly the capasitor wont hold a charge. so after you kick the hell out of it. it finally charges enough to give you adaquete spark. Like i said the last 3 times ive tried to start it it takes for ever and it will start to start maybe 2 seconds of fire and dwindle off. untill finally it catches and stays running. kinda at a loss. because i mean it WILL start just 10 minutes later of kicking.

 

Have you put it back together yet?  Didn't mean to abandon you, so let me know your status.

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Have you put it back together yet? Didn't mean to abandon you, so let me know your status.

the piston and cylinder and head are all, subframe and throttle body. Just needed to borrow torque wrench and torque everything down. Then time it and put final touches on and it's rdy to fire. I've been doing a lot of reading. And for break in I'm going to let it warm up and ride it hard for 20 min while staying out of rev limiter ( always do anyway ) and then oil change. And should be good for race day ( a day and half away ) cross fingers. And u didn't abandon me... You came back ! Lol this is just my first rebuild like this and wanted some guidance along way and the help is much appreciated. I just hope she fires up nicely.

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Have you put it back together yet? Didn't mean to abandon you, so let me know your status.

she fired right up!!! Once the fuel fed through lines fired firmly up. Not gonna lie pretty proud and pumped right now. All packed up headed to local track to break in for 20 min then oil change
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