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13 350exc-f large metal chunk in oil pan. Need some advise.

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Bought this bike a few months ago. Just did the second oil change and found this ( See pic)

 

Bike has 8000 miles

260 hours

 

Valves in spec, runs great. All gears shift smooth. No knocking or anything.

I did some research and found the original owner on a forum and searched his posts. Turns out at 7500 he found a similar chunk in the oil and it was never brought to my attention.

 

It looks like dog gears off the transmission which would really suck as I have never split a case before and would probably have KTM do the work. I assume i can expect about 10-15 hours of labor plus parts so I am looking at $1500-$2000 for the work worst case?
 

Or do I try and sell it as is and pick up a brand new 500...

 

Any ideas as to what caused this and will ktm do anything about it?

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Edited by Redwood650

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I did some research and found the original owner on a forum and searched his posts. Turns out at 7500 he found a similar chunk in the oil and it was never brought to my attention.

 

 

Good for you that you found those posts by the previous owner.  He obviously had previous knowledge that he failed to disclose when he sold it to you which could be considered illegal.  You might want to speak to an attorney and try to get the previous owner to at least SPLIT the repair costs as a compromise.  Save the posts as evidence before he deletes them.  

 

Those chunks look serious.  Good luck and sorry about the cover-up.

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Good for you that you found those posts by the previous owner.  He obviously had previous knowledge that he failed to disclose when he sold it to you which could be considered illegal.  You might want to speak to an attorney and try to get the previous owner to at least SPLIT the repair costs as a compromise.  Save the posts as evidence before he deletes them.  

 

Those chunks look serious.  Good luck and sorry about the cover-up.

 

 

Thanks, I have taken a screen shot of the threads where I found him. I love the bike but I dont know how much I want to invest in the bike. It might make more sense to take a loss and start over with a brand new bike. I might look into the legalities of him knowing about the chunk(s) in the oil. This was his picture that he posted back in January.

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Edited by Redwood650
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I would say that you have a very good case against him, especially if the thread he posted that picture in had replies by other members giving him reason to be alarmed, and he actually posted after reading those posts.  Then he can't say he never knew what those chunks were.  Either way, he had prior knowledge and didn't disclose.  Technology can bite you in the ass for sure!

 

You could try giving him a call and see what he says……if he doesn't work with you and tells you to piss off…..tell him he can tell it to the judge and take him to small claims court.  If you paid him asking price and fair market value, then he should have some consideration about the repair bills you need.  If you paid far less than market value, then he probably gave you a deal knowing in his own mind you were going to need some work.  

 

Still a hassle, but it's wrong what he did.

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I would say that you have a very good case against him, especially if the thread he posted that picture in had replies by other members giving him reason to be alarmed, and he actually posted after reading those posts.  Then he can't say he never knew what those chunks were.  Either way, he had prior knowledge and didn't disclose.  Technology can bite you in the ass for sure!

 

You could try giving him a call and see what he says……if he doesn't work with you and tells you to piss off…..tell him he can tell it to the judge and take him to small claims court.  If you paid him asking price and fair market value, then he should have some consideration about the repair bills you need.  If you paid far less than market value, then he probably gave you a deal knowing in his own mind you were going to need some work.  

 

Still a hassle, but it's wrong what he did.

 

 

Thanks for the advise. I paid $8500 which might seem like a lot with that many miles but there are no used 350 or 500's on craigslist and our local dealer sells new 350's for 11K . The other part that made the deal worth while was the $3k worth of extras on and off the bike. Im going to hold off on contacting him for now until I speak with KTM and get a quote to split the cases and rebuild the transmission etc... Ill keep you posted. 

Edited by Redwood650

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Good for you that you found those posts by the previous owner. He obviously had previous knowledge that he failed to disclose when he sold it to you which could be considered illegal. You might want to speak to an attorney and try to get the previous owner to at least SPLIT the repair costs as a compromise. Save the posts as evidence before he deletes them.

Those chunks look serious. Good luck and sorry about the cover-up.

The seller wasn't obligated to say anything about any broken parts. Regardless, they could have been absolutely nothing.

Go ahead and lawyer up. You won't win. Buyer beware...

Edited by Monk
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. Judge Judy presiding? The smart thing to do IMO would be to determine the extent of the repair first  and then try some diplomacy with the seller. Based on the fact that a few months has passed since the sale I'd say your on your out of luck as far as legal action goes.

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legality aside, that is a shift dog.  If you can split the cases yourself, or know someone who can, that is under a $100 part, most likely.  You'll want to go through the motor and look for any other damage while you're in there.  I wouldn't have a shop do it, just get ahold of a service manual and a knowledgeable buddy.

 

But then again, I LIKE rebuilding engines....so much shiny!

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Let me give you a few examples of why I feel the buyer could make a very strong case because the seller did not disclose information at the time of purchase.

Depending on the information discussed on the thread where the seller was posting pictures of broken pieces, it could easily be determined the knowledge seller had regarding the damage.

Let's say he knew it was the transmission issue when he sold the motorcycle and the buyer is driving along on a nice downhill slope and the transmission locks up throwing the rider down the path causing a broken neck paralyzing the rider.

You still don't think the seller would be responsible for causing the accident by not informing the buyer that the bike could potentially seize up on him?

I know of a few cases that have been to court regarding the sale of a horse that had certain tendencies to buck or spin or kick or bite and that information was not disclosed to the person purchasing the horse whereas the person was injured due to the characteristics of the horse that were not told to the buyer when purchased. The buyer was awarded a victory when suing the seller for not disclosing information they had and were held responsible for the damages to the person injured.

Now I still do not know all the information regarding the thread and what information was discussed on the post but those chunks look pretty bad and I would think one could make a solid argument that the seller was motivated to sell the motorcycle because of the damage the motorcycle had when it was sold.

I have been to small claims one time and it was recently and I can tell you that small claims judges can basically do whatever they want and I think would be sympathetic to you as a buyer. Depending on the judge I think for $75 you would have a good chance of getting some compensation back but again it would depend on the information you could provide if you can prove that the seller had good knowledge of the damage before it was offered for sale.

Please remember that I did say previously that the first step would be to discuss the situation with the seller and see if he would be reasonable in helping you with the repair.

If the seller tells you to go fish, that is when I suggested you discuss the situation with an attorney and make your case in small claims. Get quotes for the repairs from the dealership and make your copies of the threads and make your case. You really don't have much to lose at this point.

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Let me give you a few examples of why I feel the buyer could make a very strong case because the seller did not disclose information at the time of purchase.

Depending on the information discussed on the thread where the seller was posting pictures of broken pieces, it could easily be determined the knowledge seller had regarding the damage.

Let's say he knew it was the transmission issue when he sold the motorcycle and the buyer is driving along on a nice downhill slope and the transmission locks up throwing the rider down the path causing a broken neck paralyzing the rider.

You still don't think the seller would be responsible for causing the accident by not informing the buyer that the bike could potentially seize up on him?

I know of a few cases that have been to court regarding the sale of a horse that had certain tendencies to buck or spin or kick or bite and that information was not disclosed to the person purchasing the horse whereas the person was injured due to the characteristics of the horse that were not told to the buyer when purchased. The buyer was awarded a victory when suing the seller for not disclosing information they had and were held responsible for the damages to the person injured.

Now I still do not know all the information regarding the thread and what information was discussed on the post but those chunks look pretty bad and I would think one could make a solid argument that the seller was motivated to sell the motorcycle because of the damage the motorcycle had when it was sold.

I have been to small claims one time and it was recently and I can tell you that small claims judges can basically do whatever they want and I think would be sympathetic to you as a buyer. Depending on the judge I think for $75 you would have a good chance of getting some compensation back but again it would depend on the information you could provide if you can prove that the seller had good knowledge of the damage before it was offered for sale.

Please remember that I did say previously that the first step would be to discuss the situation with the seller and see if he would be reasonable in helping you with the repair.

If the seller tells you to go fish, that is when I suggested you discuss the situation with an attorney and make your case in small claims. Get quotes for the repairs from the dealership and make your copies of the threads and make your case. You really don't have much to lose at this point.

You argument could be made for anything though including new equipment. There is another thread on TT regarding a KTM 500exc with one hour on it before it blew. It could have easily locked up and did the same thing....

All we know is the OP found a piece of gear in his used bike. We know very little about what the previous history other then then what the OP mentioned. Maybe the previous owner fixed the issue? Maybe it's a completely different issue all together?

At this point I'm not saying the OP is wrong, just saying a lot of other information has to come forth before you can start legal action. And combine the fact that you might not win too. Might have been just easier to split the cases and do the work yourself and have a freshly rebuilt bike...

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IMO fix it your self... It's not that hard and will build your confidence as well as give you a better understanding of the why's and how's of maintaining your ride. The OP bought a used dirt bike from a private party. Even the dealer only gives you a 30 day warrenty and thats when brand new.  Oh, and did I mention you'll save a ton of money?

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At 260 hours on a dirt bike that I planned to keep I would be going through the motor anyway.

If your not inclined to do the motor work yourself, pull the motor and take it to on of the independent shops that works on KTM's.

It will be a like  new motor again and should last quite a long time.

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. Judge Judy presiding? The smart thing to do IMO would be to determine the extent of the repair first  and then try some diplomacy with the seller. Based on the fact that a few months has passed since the sale I'd say your on your out of luck as far as legal action goes.

 

I spoke with a KTM dealer today and quote me $320 to split the cases and tell me whats wrong. THat includes putting it back together but not the required pieces to fix or the additional labor. 

legality aside, that is a shift dog.  If you can split the cases yourself, or know someone who can, that is under a $100 part, most likely.  You'll want to go through the motor and look for any other damage while you're in there.  I wouldn't have a shop do it, just get ahold of a service manual and a knowledgeable buddy.

 

But then again, I LIKE rebuilding engines....so much shiny!

I really hope its a cheap part. I am strongly considering going through it and splitting the cases myself. I have never split a case but I feel confident that I could do it. My biggest concern would be the money needed in tools to do so. I dont have a case splitter and I am not sure what other specialty tools I would need to do the job. Any one that can let me know would be a huge help.

 

All we know is the OP found a piece of gear in his used bike. We know very little about what the previous history other then then what the OP mentioned. Maybe the previous owner fixed the issue? Maybe it's a completely different issue all together?

At this point I'm not saying the OP is wrong, just saying a lot of other information has to come forth before you can start legal action. And combine the fact that you might not win too. Might have been just easier to split the cases and do the work yourself and have a freshly rebuilt bike...

 

The screen shot I have basically he admits to finding a piece just like the one I found in it and decided to not do anything about it. I dont want to bash his name as I have not yet spoke with him. I plan on sending him a message shortly to see if he wants to help me. I doubt it but it's worth a shot. I just feel like from a legal standpoint I dont have the time to sue him nor do I want to spent the time doing so. Ill just chalk it up as a loss and a lesson learned in life when dealing with used bikes. Next time Ill just buy new!

 

IMO fix it your self... It's not that hard and will build your confidence as well as give you a better understanding of the why's and how's of maintaining your ride. The OP bought a used dirt bike from a private party. Even the dealer only gives you a 30 day warrenty and thats when brand new.  Oh, and did I mention you'll save a ton of money?

 

Besides a case splitter and a fly wheel puller, what other specialty tools will I need to split the cases? labor is going to be around $500 to split and replace the gears. I figure it would be about 1-2 hours labor to replace the gears. I am really considering doing the work myself from a savings standpoint.

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Approach the whole thing clinically and methodically.Take pictures, avoid alcohol and distractions. You'll be fine.

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you NEED a flywheel puller.  a case splitter to push the crank out may or may not be needed.  I've found/seen on KTM's that the crank is usually such a light press into the crank bearings that you can get by with a few light taps of a deadblow while you pull up on the case.  Then there's nothin to it but to do it.  

 

If you do it yourself just remember the mantra "Cleanliness is next to Godliness".  Don't force anything and keep it clean and orderly and you'll be ok.  There's lots of little parts to keep track of so go slow and keep organized.  Put bolts back in their holes when you have the component free and keep components on their shafts in order where you can.

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Put bolts and parts into zip lock baggies and write on them with a sharpie. Use a torque wrench and keep everything sterile clean and your life will be better. :)

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Well I was able to speak with the original owner and he was rather cool about the whole situation. He has offered to help with the cost needed to repair the bottom end. He didnt say how much but at this point anything is better than nothing. I decided to take the bike into my local KTM dealer to have them do the work. I am very busy with work and feel that it wont get done for a long time. Plus since he is willing to pay for some of the repairs let the pro's do it.

 

Thanks for the advise from everyone it really helped me alot. If I had the time I would attempt to do it myself.

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Well I was able to speak with the original owner and he was rather cool about the whole situation. He has offered to help with the cost needed to repair the bottom end. He didnt say how much but at this point anything is better than nothing. I decided to take the bike into my local KTM dealer to have them do the work. I am very busy with work and feel that it wont get done for a long time. Plus since he is willing to pay for some of the repairs let the pro's do it.

 

Thanks for the advise from everyone it really helped me alot. If I had the time I would attempt to do it myself.

Atta Boy! I think that's awesome that the seller was willing to help you out……YOU KNOW he knew what was up.  Good on him….good on you.  Nicely done….enjoy!

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Atta Boy! I think that's awesome that the seller was willing to help you out……YOU KNOW he knew what was up.  Good on him….good on you.  Nicely done….enjoy!

I'm hoping one day once this is all done I can buy him lunch and go for a ride or something. I just hope it all works out.

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I'm hoping one day once this is all done I can buy him lunch and go for a ride or something. I just hope it all works out.

Oh I am sure you will have your chance.  As many others posted, this fix isn't gonna be a major thing, and you will end up with a better engine that you know what's up with.  That's such a plus.  If you are ever riding in Cali….hit me up! Small world, and smaller trails:)

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