To whoop or not to whoop?

[Larry Gude]

That is the question.

 

We've got a pretty damn kewl little MX track going replete with a neat little uphill into the woods technical section, very short but, challenging and a really cool break up of a lap, a lap being about 8/10's of a mile. A nice 40 foot table top, uphill, right out of a good, deep rut, numerous little doubles, a few singles, really good elevation changes and a lot of off camber sweepers to keep the speed down and make everyone a better rider and, lastly, a sweet chicane type section. Everyone who comes out enjoys the heck out of it, including several ex pros.

 

One of the better riders wanted a whoop section so, he laid it out, 8, right after the table top, at the end of the only shit 'n git WTFO straight away that you used to have to really slam on the brakes to make a big left hand, off camber sweeper. I made 'em good sized, rolled them real nice with the Bobcat, and I was very happy with how they turned out and the better riders are getting the hang of it.

 

To make a short story long, I've been nervous about them, just waiting for someone to go over the bars and land into the face of the next one. We've had one kid get whiskey throttle and shoot his bike into the woods. (Just not enough cameras!!!) Half of us are C or lower riders and it's 8 singles, lot of arm work out and really not much fun. The better riders really seem to dig the challenge but, they're all sick in the head anyway. Plus, they are ALL tripling in so, they're a bunch of show off, cheating dogs anyway.

 

In any event, I took them out today and made it double/double using the dirt from every other one to make the four not quite twice as big but also wider. We only had two guys out today and they love it including one of the better riders who was getting the timing on the whoops. He doesn't miss them at all. You can really get some fun air on the things now and that 'hold my breathe' thing is gone. It no longer feels like a nasty wreck waiting to happen. It flows REAL nice. I, personally, like it much better. However, I'm curious what the general consensus is on whoops.

 

So, how important, in your view, are whoops to the skill set of a bunch of guys who range from beginner 14 year olds to old ex pros to middle of the road guys? We've got a really good group of people. Would you want them? Why or why not???

 

Thoughts?

[Rooster72]

I say put them in but split that section and offer an option?

[gimped up]

Yep either split lane or leave out.

Biggest question is how's your insurance?

If you have them and someone gets hurt.

Its a concern today.

[Hans Schmid]

Skill blitzing whoops? Not needed! Suspension setup is critical and killing yourself to do isn't necessary. Larger whoops/rollers would be more beneficial...

[joey330]

That is the question.

We've got a pretty damn kewl little MX track going replete with a neat little uphill into the woods technical section, very short but, challenging and a really cool break up of a lap, a lap being about 8/10's of a mile. A nice 40 foot table top, uphill, right out of a good, deep rut, numerous little doubles, a few singles, really good elevation changes and a lot of off camber sweepers to keep the speed down and make everyone a better rider and, lastly, a sweet chicane type section. Everyone who comes out enjoys the heck out of it, including several ex pros.

One of the better riders wanted a whoop section so, he laid it out, 8, right after the table top, at the end of the only shit 'n git WTFO straight away that you used to have to really slam on the brakes to make a big left hand, off camber sweeper. I made 'em good sized, rolled them real nice with the Bobcat, and I was very happy with how they turned out and the better riders are getting the hang of it.

To make a short story long, I've been nervous about them, just waiting for someone to go over the bars and land into the face of the next one. We've had one kid get whiskey throttle and shoot his bike into the woods. (Just not enough cameras!!!) Half of us are C or lower riders and it's 8 singles, lot of arm work out and really not much fun. The better riders really seem to dig the challenge but, they're all sick in the head anyway. Plus, they are ALL tripling in so, they're a bunch of show off, cheating dogs anyway.

In any event, I took them out today and made it double/double using the dirt from every other one to make the four not quite twice as big but also wider. We only had two guys out today and they love it including one of the better riders who was getting the timing on the whoops. He doesn't miss them at all. You can really get some fun air on the things now and that 'hold my breathe' thing is gone. It no longer feels like a nasty wreck waiting to happen. It flows REAL nice. I, personally, like it much better. However, I'm curious what the general consensus is on whoops.

So, how important, in your view, are whoops to the skill set of a bunch of guys who range from beginner 14 year olds to old ex pros to middle of the road guys? We've got a really good group of people. Would you want them? Why or why not???

Thoughts?

Rhythm is a big part of Mx Sx. And it is the best part, I love nothing better then a big gnarly whoop section, into a dub or so forth. It didn't used to be that way, so I took it timidly. But without a rhythm section you do not have perfection. Now if this is your home track, make it your way. But it you want to encourage people to advance. Keep a good long Durham into a double. Doubles are forgiving, you can hit it slow and land fine, you can hit it fast and be fine. So make it adequate for multiple skill levels. Don't hesitate because you are nervous, you could just have a int fear, maybe hit it a few times get it and enjoy it.

I've broken numerous bones, have 3 kids and am conscious of things now, I still say whoops are a necessity

[Larry Gude]

Yep either split lane or leave out.

Biggest question is how's your insurance?

If you have them and someone gets hurt.

Its a concern today.

Everyone signs the waiver first.

 

We have it so you can skip, safely, EVERY obstacle on the track but, as you all well know, you WANNA try. You WANNA learn to do it and, in my view, whoops are an accident waiting to happen more than anything else.

Rhythm is a big part of Mx Sx. And it is the best part, I love nothing better then a big gnarly whoop section, into a dub or so forth. It didn't used to be that way, so I took it timidly. But without a rhythm section you do not have perfection. Now if this is your home track, make it your way. But it you want to encourage people to advance. Keep a good long Durham into a double. Doubles are forgiving, you can hit it slow and land fine, you can hit it fast and be fine. So make it adequate for multiple skill levels. Don't hesitate because you are nervous, you could just have a int fear, maybe hit it a few times get it and enjoy it.

 

I've broken numerous bones, have 3 kids and am conscious of things now, I still say whoops are a necessity

 

Thanks for the thoughts. 

[Larry Gude]

Skill blitzing whoops? Not needed! Suspension setup is critical and killing yourself to do isn't necessary. Larger whoops/rollers would be more beneficial...

 

See, that's another thing; whoops beat the crap out of a bike. We've got two guys right now who have fork leaks all of a sudden. Not to mention the beating on the swing arm, the chain slapping around and so forth.

[joey330]

See, that's another thing; whoops beat the crap out of a bike. We've got two guys right now who have fork leaks all of a sudden. Not to mention the beating on the swing arm, the chain slapping around and so forth.

If you go to a Mx track you need to accept the beating on your bike.

Like I said before and after reading ops last remark, it is a track, whoops are necessary to be a real Mx track.

Obviously everyone will try and fail or succeed, that's part of it, start with a smaller set or a 2 part rhythm in different parts of track, one challenging one for learning. Don't make the learning curve easy. Easy isn't learning. Especially at a track. Honestly that is bad advice, I had no sympathy at tracks I did what it took and learned it. Giving guys an easy way out is cheap. But liability wise, maybe cheaper for you. So do it then.

But still like I said, as all pros will tell you, as I ride with them every time I ride... Rhythm is the biggest part of Mx Sx. So incorporating that in your track in variety will help skills advance and even progress.

[Larry Gude]

If you go to a Mx track you need to accept the beating on your bike.

Like I said before and after reading ops last remark, it is a track, whoops are necessary to be a real Mx track.

Obviously everyone will try and fail or succeed, that's part of it, start with a smaller set or a 2 part rhythm in different parts of track, one challenging one for learning. Don't make the learning curve easy. Easy isn't learning. Especially at a track. Honestly that is bad advice, I had no sympathy at tracks I did what it took and learned it. Giving guys an easy way out is cheap. But liability wise, maybe cheaper for you. So do it then.

But still like I said, as all pros will tell you, as I ride with them every time I ride... Rhythm is the biggest part of Mx Sx. So incorporating that in your track in variety will help skills advance and even progress.

See, that's part of the dilemma; balancing fun and getting better...    Appreciate the thoughts.

[KTM_Pat]

See, that's another thing; whoops beat the crap out of a bike. We've got two guys right now who have fork leaks all of a sudden. Not to mention the beating on the swing arm, the chain slapping around and so forth.

I say do the split and give the option. Best of both worlds. I love whoops. Getting down a whoop section and finding a ry thum is an art and i find more challenging than the average doubles and triples that you find your gear and hit everytime. Very hard to hit whoops the same way everytime and that's why they rock.

Got leaky forks. Fix' Em and ride.

[gimped up]

The only section of a track you could not cheat a whoop section, is a whooped turn. If spaced correctly, you could not double in and out because of the turn.

We had a small section in our practice track like this.

Whoops started before the turn and ran all the way to about a 100' past.

Make a pie shape section in the turn so you can adjust before hitting the rest.

they're really fun when wet.

[Wait a while]

Everyone signs the waiver first.

 

We have it so you can skip, safely, EVERY obstacle on the track but, as you all well know, you WANNA try. You WANNA learn to do it and, in my view, whoops are an accident waiting to happen more than anything else.

 

Thanks for the thoughts. 

Nicely done on the design for skipping obstacles in conjunction with the waiver. Your own idea, or an insurance requirement? 

I was working at a local mining project a few years ago that was on the outskirts of town. The company installed a fence and danger signs around an open pit. Someone's comment was "Why did they even bother, idiots on dirt bikes will just cut the fence anyway." I pointed out to them that if an idiot cuts the fence then it can be proven that they made a concious decision to ignore the warnings and defeat the company's efforts to keep them safe. The company still gets sued but the payout is much, much less than if they left the area open for anyone to stumble across (and the company would also have to answer to the Mines Department about why they failed to delineate an active mining area). 

There was a big shiny new sign installed out the front gate on a Friday saying "Norton Goldfields Janet Ivy Project". On the Monday the poles holding the sign up were a bit bent and we heard that a dirt biker had smashed into it on the weekend. That was a good demonstration of why a fence was needed. 

 

[Larry Gude]

Nicely done on the design for skipping obstacles in conjunction with the waiver. Your own idea, or an insurance requirement? 

 

One of the guys is a lawyer and real good friends with a big time track owner in the region and it was strongly suggested. Plus, it seems like common sense. Everyone has readily understood and been all too happy to sign. As far as the legalities, as I understand it per my agent, even without a waiver, if I go on your property with my bike, as a guest, it is all on me anyway. Liability comes into play if it is a work requirement. Requiring the waiver just adds a level of formal awareness of that personal responsibility. 

[Rooster72]

The only section of a track you could not cheat a whoop section, is a whooped turn. If spaced correctly, you could not double in and out because of the turn.

We had a small section in our practice track like this.

Whoops started before the turn and ran all the way to about a 100' past.

Make a pie shape section in the turn so you can adjust before hitting the rest.

they're really fun when wet.

 

The louder the bike the easier it is to flow through a whoop section… Sorry, I just couldn't help it!! Lol

Edited July 28, 2014 by Rooster72

[Wait a while]

One of the guys is a lawyer and real good friends with a big time track owner in the region and it was strongly suggested. Plus, it seems like common sense. Everyone has readily understood and been all too happy to sign. As far as the legalities, as I understand it per my agent, even without a waiver, if I go on your property with my bike, as a guest, it is all on me anyway. Liability comes into play if it is a work requirement. Requiring the waiver just adds a level of formal awareness of that personal responsibility. 

Ah, interesting. So the lawyer guy would have a good idea of how it really goes down, urban myths aside. It's just that you know how you hear stories about people who have been sued by trespassers, or like a burglar suing because they injured themselves while robbing someone's house, but IDK if those are just urban myths. Something tells me there is something more to the story that doesn't make it along the grapevine. 

[Larry Gude]

Ah, interesting. So the lawyer guy would have a good idea of how it really goes down, urban myths aside. It's just that you know how you hear stories about people who have been sued by trespassers, or like a burglar suing because they injured themselves while robbing someone's house, but IDK if those are just urban myths. Something tells me there is something more to the story that doesn't make it along the grapevine. 

Bottom line we, the people, can sue for anything and from there it becomes a matter of how folks think and feel about it. Not all urban myths are myths. If you are acting in good faith, not profiting off of it, that's the best you can do. The alternative is to stay in the cave and never come out!  LOL   By and large, from a legal standpoint, it is accepted that by riding, horses, bikes, etc, you've already assumed most of the risk for yourself.

 

Best example I can think of is the McDonald's coffee thing, the woman who burned herself and sued. The truth behind the story is McDonalds long knew they had a serious risk on their hands but, as a corporation, they took the view that it was not worth selling cooler coffee and that was from all sorts of perspectives including people who liked how hot it was. In any event, quite often the back story on these sorts of things is that, basically, someone decided that it made the most sense to wait to be sued. I'm not waiting to be sued. I'm trying to be proactive about it, safety, liability, while also trying to share the opportunity to ride. I mean, the safest thing is always to just not do this or that or the other thing but, a world with no dirt bikes????

[Wait a while]

Ha, you read my mind, I was thinking of that McDonald's thing too. About how it seemed like another 'everybody suing everybody' case but actually she had very good grounds and all she was after was medical expenses. Then she got 3 days of McDonald's coffee profits added by the judge because he decided that it was the sort of punitive measure that would make them reconsider their practices. Who knew McDonald's US coffee profits are in the 10's of millions every day?!

I've watched some people go through some crazy legal stuff lately and you are dead right, you'd have to live under a rock to avoid this stuff. It truly can happen to anyone. 

[Kpoulz328]

Everyone signs the waiver first.

We have it so you can skip, safely, EVERY obstacle on the track but, as you all well know, you WANNA try. You WANNA learn to do it and, in my view, whoops are an accident waiting to happen more than anything else.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Another thing is the maintenance on them. After a while the whoops will start getting cupped out and will need to be reshaped to be safe and that takes time. My local track had a long big whoop/roller section but it was taken out this year. I assume because at the end of the day when people were getting tired it was common for someone to get out of shape and crash hard. Also it's easier to just drag the discs around the track with the tractor to prep it than spend a lot of extra time with the bob cat reshaping each whoop.

[Larry Gude]

Another thing is the maintenance on them. After a while the whoops will start getting cupped out and will need to be reshaped to be safe and that takes time. My local track had a long big whoop/roller section but it was taken out this year. I assume because at the end of the day when people were getting tired it was common for someone to get out of shape and crash hard. Also it's easier to just drag the discs around the track with the tractor to prep it than spend a lot of extra time with the bob cat reshaping each whoop.

It all takes maintenance, all the faces and landings, the preferred lines that develop, so, that wasn't an issue. My big thing was the danger of a bad crash.

 

As for a disk, we used to have a 'harrow' but, it really was only good for initial lay out. I'd be happy to hear opinions on the best maintenance disk/tiller/thingy      Thanks!

[yz133rider]

All this talk of a backyard track is making me mighty jealous!