Desert Racers out there - super stiff suspension?

[PaxtonJones]

Yo speed demons!

 

The way I see it...why would a desert high speed racer ever want to use all their travel say "in standard whoops" when this soft suspension causes them to cut almost all their speed every time they come up on a road depression, rolling hill section, deep downhill whoops stretch, etc, etc?

 

My tech is going to set me up the way I want...riding high in the stroke, keep the rebound calm, and make it possible for me to stay on that throttle in compression zones. 

 

However,  he says my request is very unusual.  I am beside myself about all of this.  I know what I like, but why oh why is it so important to have squishy suspension? 

[GHILL28]

I've been in the same boat many times.  I HATE bouncy mushy busy suspension, especially going fast.  A plush feel is nice, but control is nicer.  I've been through a few different tuners asking for the same thing, and most don't get it.  I end up with something that uses all its travel on the smallest of features, so if you hit a fast whoop in the bottom of a g-out....well, who the hell knows what will happen.  On top of that, the time it takes for the chassis to recover for the next big feature is what will end up limiting your speed too.

 

Honestly, you're almost best off asking for a B level MX setup.  Most tuners can relate closest to that.

[Kyle Tarry]

If you tune for the biggest feature that you'll see, the suspension might beat you to death and have crappy traction everywhere else.  You might be able to carry a bit more speed in one deep g-out, but the tradeoff in speed through your average rock garden or trail chop might not be worth it.

 

I'm not advocating a sloppy soft suspension, just giving examples of why you can't tune for extreme obstacles.

 

Your average desert setup is probably between a XC/woods and MX setup, maybe closer to a plush MX setup for faster riders.

[GHILL28]

The thing about desert racing is that it isn't just one nasty g-out.  It's hundreds, if not thousands.  Plus thousands of rocks.

 

So how would you characterize the suspension on Kurt Caselli's bike or Kendall Norman's?  They don't back off one bit hitting stuff at mach silly but still float through the rockgardens.

[GDI70]

I would guess they may be on one rate stiffer fork springs than rider weight spec.

[Kyle Tarry]

Guys like that float through rock gardens because they are going twice the speed as the rest of us, it's not really a function of suspension.

[GDI70]

I would shoot for c level mx settings for a level off road. It should never be a mush-bucket on smaller square- edge stuff.

[bigbore2]

Not squishy, but plush.

 

I am going thru that same discussion with my setup. I just softened the forks 3 clicks. Now it feels easier thru the whoops and maybe faSTER.  But I notice I am bottoming out in the g-outs currently on my forks at low 4th gear. Probably worse now that i softened the forks.

 

I am looking for having a suspension that is plush and a little soft in the first 1/2 of stroke [for the whoops]  and then more quickly firms up in the 2nd half with added bottoming for those fast g-outs.

 

Can one have it all? Does anyone have a set up like this in the desert?

Edited November 13, 2014 by bigbore2

[PaxtonJones]

MX track racers: I think they are the ones who need plush soft suspension. Whoops are 3rd gear...maybe 4th in a great while. The biggest impact that happens seems to be the transition into a jump ramp takeoff not the landing. Now think about moving 70mph and dumping speed at the last moment so you don't get killed in the massive unevenly spaced whoops that you didn't know we're there. In this scenario soft suspension doesn't just mean a slow lap time...it is the difference between whether you crash or not. Soft vs Stiff suspension on slow technical ground has little to do with speed and more to do with comfort. Is comfort or speed more fun? SPEED!!!

Edited November 13, 2014 by PaxtonJones

[GHILL28]

Guys like that float through rock gardens because they are going twice the speed as the rest of us, it's not really a function of suspension.

Everyone including the fast guys still go through slow sections slowly. They might be a slight bit faster, but not much moreso than an expert or ammie rider. They don't get kicked around.

This whole "it only works going crazy fast" argument doesn't hold any water when it comes to desert racing. It has to work at ALL speeds.

I'm not going to go as fast as those top guys, but I want my bike to be settled the same way theirs are at their 2/3 max speed.

[cj_wai]

make it stiff to handle your high speed sections safely.  be prepared to be punished in the slow sections.

 

I think the pros run the slow sections way faster than you think.  they do however get punished by them. they can handle that because they are in better shape than you and spend far more time racing than you. don,t compare your needs with a pro,s needs.

 

you should do your own revalve and just add face shims till you get where you want.  you could try a decent medium type stack and run higher oil levels in the forks.

[mog]

Jbi spring seats or a huck valve sounds the ticket

[dkbl5]

There is a misconception that lots of compression damping = stiff.  When tuned & broken in you can have LOTS of damping and plushness.  People hold up MX setups as being the strongest - high speed desert whoops are what demands compression damping - beyond what the track requires.  Folks who don't know haven't tried it.

[Kyle Tarry]

MX track racers: I think they are the ones who need plush soft suspension. Whoops are 3rd gear...maybe 4th in a great while. The biggest impact that happens seems to be the transition into a jump ramp takeoff not the landing. Now think about moving 70mph and dumping speed at the last moment so you don't get killed in the massive unevenly spaced whoops that you didn't know we're there. In this scenario soft suspension doesn't just mean a slow lap time...it is the difference between whether you crash or not. Soft vs Stiff suspension on slow technical ground has little to do with speed and more to do with comfort. Is comfort or speed more fun? SPEED!!!

It's not just jumps and whoops. You can case jumps, there can be big braking bumps, acceleration bumps, you can mistime whoops, plenty of tracks have big g-outs, lots of things can happen. You need a MUCH stiffer suspension for MX than you do for woods/enduro, and somewhat stiffer than you need for GNCC, for example. Also, MX setups will vary a lot depending on the type of tracks and terrain that are ridden. Big smooth fast jump tracks tend to be stiffer, chopped up and clapped out natural terrain tracks may require softer, etc.

If I recall correctly, you were in here recently looking for a suspension that you could launch of huge drops with flat landings and not bottom, so maybe your perception of what is stiff vs. soft is different than the norm?

I'm not saying you want soft suspension for desert racing. I'm just saying that you probably don't want to use "don't bottom in the biggest g-out I'll ever see" as a tuning criteria because it'll bias your suspension away from something that works everywhere. Occasional bottoming may happen on extreme obstacles.

Everyone including the fast guys still go through slow sections slowly. They might be a slight bit faster, but not much moreso than an expert or ammie rider. They don't get kicked around.

This whole "it only works going crazy fast" argument doesn't hold any water when it comes to desert racing. It has to work at ALL speeds.

I'm not going to go as fast as those top guys, but I want my bike to be settled the same way theirs are at their 2/3 max speed.

I think that the fast guys (at least top guys like the ones you named) are way faster than you think. They also have levels of skills, bike control, and fitness on the bike that the rest of us can't touch. Their suspension needs are likely to be quite a bit different than everyone else's.

Note that I am not suggesting that a desert suspension should be soft, or that softer is better. I'm just saying that suspension needs vary significantly by rider, skill, speed, and terrain, and it's probably not very valuable to try to use a very fast pro as an indication of what would work for you.

[mch]

I have a 07YZ450 and 12WR450 (Same forks, same spring rates, both stock valving).  I love how the WR soaks up a lot of the stuff and it seems to let me flow through sections a lot smoother.  It does use most of the stroke and bottoms out from time to time.  On the YZ, it takes g-outs a lot better as well as the whoops.  I take a beating on the YZ when compared to the WR.  Since desert racing isn't normally a 20-30 minute moto, I'd pick the WR any day to race.

[GHILL28]

I think that the fast guys (at least top guys like the ones you named) are way faster than you think. They also have levels of skills, bike control, and fitness on the bike that the rest of us can't touch. Their suspension needs are likely to be quite a bit different than everyone else's.

Note that I am not suggesting that a desert suspension should be soft, or that softer is better. I'm just saying that suspension needs vary significantly by rider, skill, speed, and terrain, and it's probably not very valuable to try to use a very fast pro as an indication of what would work for you.

 

They are otherworldly fast at their top speeds, there's no doubt about that.  In the slow and mid speed stuff, they go a LITTLE faster, but they mostly just don't make any mistakes.  They could go a lot faster, but risk wadding up.  It's a 100 mile race usually.  

 

Point is, their bikes work well in the sections where their speed has to be about the same as everyone else's.

 

For a strict desert racing application, I haven't seen a single instance where, say, a skilled Intermediate rider hasn't seen huge benefits from the opportunity to ride suspension set up for a fast expert or pro.  Never once have I ever heard anyone say afterwards "it was too stiff for me to ride because I don't go fast enough to make it work".  That happens with MX bikes.

[Kyle Tarry]

Why would they be way faster than everyone else in the fast stuff, but about the same in the slow stuff? If that was true, would everyone be the same speed in a slow technical race? Having gotten passed (blown by would be more accurate) by guys like Lafferty and Hufford in technical enduros, I can assure you that the pros go way faster than the Joes in slow stuff too.

In any case, I'm not sure what point you are making in the second part of your post. If an intermediate rider has a big benefit from an expert/pro suspension, that just means that his suspension was setup wrong, doesn't it? I think I am not following the implication you're making, can you please clarify? You seem to be saying that there is no such thing as "too stiff" for desert bikes, but that can't possibly be true. If I keep making your bike stiffer and stiffer, at some point it's going to stop being an improvement, it doesn't just keep getting better and better forever.

[GHILL28]

Why would they be way faster than everyone else in the fast stuff, but about the same in the slow stuff? If that was true, would everyone be the same speed in a slow technical race? Having gotten passed (blown by would be more accurate) by guys like Lafferty and Hufford in technical enduros, I can assure you that the pros go way faster than the Joes in slow stuff too.

In any case, I'm not sure what point you are making in the second part of your post. If an intermediate rider has a big benefit from an expert/pro suspension, that just means that his suspension was setup wrong, doesn't it? I think I am not following the implication you're making, can you please clarify? You seem to be saying that there is no such thing as "too stiff" for desert bikes, but that can't possibly be true. If I keep making your bike stiffer and stiffer, at some point it's going to stop being an improvement, it doesn't just keep getting better and better forever.

 

Well, the terrain is the limiting factor.  1st-2nd gear rock pits to be exact.  Those sections tend to be great equalizers.  The pros get through faster because they are cleaner, not because their ground speed is that much faster or they are hitting things all that much harder.

 

My point is that the argument "the pros run suspension that is too stiff for mortals to ride" is not really a valid argument for a desert setup.  I hear it a lot, and I see it proven completely wrong a lot too.  Not saying there's no such thing as too stiff.  There definitely is.  Too soft I think is the more common issue with most of the desert re-valves you see.

 

I still maintain that setting up a good desert bike is the hardest application for suspension tuning there is.  Nobody said there's a simple solution at all.  Communicating the demands of the course to a tuner who hasn't experienced it is pretty much impossible, and I think that's part of the problem.

[Piney Woods]

Great thread! Really illustrates how much the tuners philosophy dictates his preferred setups. Also shows how critical communication between rider and tuner is. Sure wish some of you were closer. ?

[Kyle Tarry]

My point is that the argument "the pros run suspension that is too stiff for mortals to ride" is not really a valid argument for a desert setup.  I hear it a lot, and I see it proven completely wrong a lot too.

If a pro's desert setup is good for a novice/intermediate rider, you're just saying that everyone should run the same setup, right?

Not saying there's no such thing as too stiff.  There definitely is.  Too soft I think is the more common issue with most of the desert re-valves you see.

 

I still maintain that setting up a good desert bike is the hardest application for suspension tuning there is.  Nobody said there's a simple solution at all.  Communicating the demands of the course to a tuner who hasn't experienced it is pretty much impossible, and I think that's part of the problem.

I think desert is definitely tough because it combines some of the most "different" parts of the other types of riding (slow rocks from enduro, g-outs from XC, whoops from MX). However, that just means you need to strike a balance. I don't think tuning for MX or enduro is "easy" either, just different. Enduro, XC, and MX can have a pretty wide range too. I agree that "too soft" is a common problem for sure, I've seen it out west and we see it back east on enduro/trail bikes all the time too.