Just joined the club, have an odd question.

[surrender]

G'day everyone, first post but been hanging around a bit doing a lot of reading and soaking up some information. I have just picked up a 2006 CRF450x and I am looking for a bit of open minded input about what I want to do with the bike and hoping I can get some tips and encouragement.

 

I have done a bit of research and know the basic things like full quart in the tranny side etc. Got a service manual and things like that. 

 

Not sure if it is really a question, but I want some input on setting up the bike for something it wasn't really designed for doing. Now before everybody tells me to go and buy an R, it's not an option. Apart from the fact that I got this bike for an absolute steal, it's also the closest style of bike I could find that still complies with ADR and can be road legal in NSW Australia. Now here is the tricky part, I want to set the bike up for riding big jumps and hills, bit of dunes etc. Basically I want a road legal bike that will also cover the freeride/jumping duties like an FMX bike would.

 

I know this is a lot to ask, I don't need to be told to go and buy another bike. Anything is possible, I have a decent knowledge of mechanics and suspension and also have some metal fabrication skills if it comes to that.. 

 

I am aware that I am not going to ever be able to build a bike that is happy in tight trails, fast on a track, fast through the desert, happy on the highway and happy in the air. I don't need tall gearing for long highway stints, really you can throw road manners out the window. The bike needs to be LEGAL, not practical. I want it to be happy in the hills and in the air, that's the aim here.

 

So there are a few areas I have already thought about, first up being removal of any unnecessary items that add weight. Any info on that will be appreciated so I can compile a list of what to ditch, lights and indicators are all going to be setup so they can be very easily removable and stuffed in a backpack. Secondly the suspension will be sorted by a professional, gonna need to get stiffened up obviously. I will also put a 19" rear wheel from an R on it to lose an extra pound or so in rotating weight. I will probably remove the battery and electric start purely for the weight saving. Something I was curious about is how the frame differs from the R and how that will affect me in my pursuit of this odd bike. Any other weight saving tips are also going to help greatly, that's one thing that needs to be sorted. Basically if time/money wasn't a factor, how would you achieve what I have explained? Obviously they are both factors, but I just want the motivation and ideas to keep the fire burning. 

 

Anyway, let's get some input and see where this strange build can take me.

 

Cheers.

[StonedInNy]

I would keep the battery (go with a shorai or something similar for weight savings) and keep the estart as the X has a fragile kick start area. If you research more you will find a lot of cracked engine case posts from the kicker being used.

As far as more weight removal. Exhaust , Ti bolts , tubeliss tires. I'm sure others will Chime in but that is a few areas to shed some weight.

[Jim Dettman]

I would keep the battery (go with a shorai or something similar for weight savings) and keep the estart as the X has a fragile kick start area. If you research more you will find a lot of cracked engine case posts from the kicker being used.

As far as more weight removal. Exhaust , Ti bolts , tubeliss tires. I'm sure others will Chime in but that is a few areas to shed some weight.

 

+1...I was going to say the very same thing. 

 

 

 Exhaust is another area where you can get some significant weight savings.  Getting suspension done would be the first thing.   Motor up next; hotter cam, possibly an R head, and certainly exhaust, jetting, and opening up the air box.  You'd also want the "pink wire mod", which give you the R's ignition curve and a more linear throttle response.

 

Jim.

[surrender]

Good info right there, these are just the things I am looking for. I did forget to mention that I have put a FMF pipe and megabomb header on it, it's also had the airbox mod but I'm not sure about the pink wire mod, I will definitely look into that. The R head and hotter cam will definitely come soon but I think I will deal with suspension and weight before I start spending money on that, the bike runs great at the moment so I'm happy to start with handling and ergonomics before I get started on moving quicker.

 

Can anybody tell me what kind of geometry differences I would be looking at with a MX/FMX bike compared to the 450x? I don't know all the terminology coming from a downhill racing background but things like standover height (seat height), head angle/rake/fork angle? I know there's another name for it. 

Could I improve anywhere in regards to the subframe, swingarm length, suspension linkage etc? Would something like a minimal swingarm lowering link be a help or a hinderance for what I'm looking for? I am 6' and ~78kgs

 

Oh and lastly I have seen the posts regarding kick starters and associated issues, I don't want to deal with that shit at all so a nice lightweight shorai and retaining the electric start sounds like a good plan. I have actually just ordered a new bearing for the starter clutch as it's one way function has been two way lately and doesn't turn the engine over. Thanks to both of you so far, keep the info coming.

[Jim Dettman]

Can anybody tell me what kind of geometry differences I would be looking at with a MX/FMX bike compared to the 450x? I don't know all the terminology coming from a downhill racing background but things like standover height (seat height), head angle/rake/fork angle? I know there's another name for it. 

Could I improve anywhere in regards to the subframe, swingarm length, suspension linkage etc? Would something like a minimal swingarm lowering link be a help or a hinderance for what I'm looking for? I am 6' and ~78kgs

 

 I would let the bike tell you what you need.  Get the suspension set first in terms of spring rates and valving for your weight and type of riding you do, then play with the sag.   I'd try both ends of the range for sag and see what you like. 

 

You may find that you like it at one of those, or some where in-between.   If not, then there are a number of ways that you could modify the geometry to get a different result.

 

 If the lowest sag setting still doesn't allow the bike to turn quickly enough for your taste, then you might raise the forks in the triple clamp, or consider a different triple to allow for a different rake.   Like wise if the highest sag setting doesn't give you enough straight line stability, you might consider a lowering link.

 

 I think what you'll find though is that you'll be pretty happy with things the way they are, but then everyone rides differently.

 

 In terms of ergonomics (bar height, bend, seat height, etc), you can play with all that, which might involve the sub-frame, but at your height and weight, I'd be very surprised if you needed to really mess with that (subframe).

 

Jim.

[FORMA MOTO]

2006 has the 24mm clamps. Change to 22 or 20 for a signifigant change in character and steering.

Tubliss and 2 or 4 ply tire will allow you to keep the 18" and spend the money other places....and prevent flats.

Suspension tuning by a professional, with accurate information from you will give you a very precise turning bike.

Since this bike has tons of internal rotating mass, one of keys to keeping it feeling light, is to keep the motor spinning as slow as possible and still be in the meat of the power.

Doing motor mods to provide for this help immensly:

- Long header and muffler (Dubach Racing)

- 2002 R cam

- Stage 3 port and polish

- upgrade the carb apump system to 2008 specs (there is a kit)

 

Other 'tricks' can be done to get the bike to feel lighter:

- lower the radiators using the ZipTy kit

- Use an oversize tank for distance, but don't fill it up all the way if you don't need it

- Use Composite skidplate, hand guards and braces, Ti pegs, 

- Remove the X lighting and it's harness bits, wire management metal and plastic parts, carve the air box.

 

Just so you know, the X and R share very few parts.

They are styled to look similar, but are not. The motor alone is nearly 20lbs heavier do to estart and a much more robust build.

Even the plastics are signifigantly lighter on R.

The R has a completely different feel in all aspects.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Kah Ran Nee

[surrender]

Appreciate both those replies Jim and Kah Ran Nee, both full of valuable info. I think I will start off with suspension as it will give me an overall feel of how the bike will ride and then go from there. I didn't put two and two together with power modifications being more weight efficient due to rotating mass and I think that's the next step after suspension. 

 

I'm aware the 450x is basically a completely different bike aside from Honda making it aesthetically similar to the R, larger tank is not really on the agenda, I was actually think more along the lines fitting a 450R tank and shrouds to give a more narrow profile and possibly make it more comfortable in the air. Not sure if this is a direct swap but if so then it will be something I would consider. Any recommendations for a super light, good all rounder tyre? Is there any more weight to shave in wheels? I have heard the factory Honda wheels are actually quite good in that aspect, I'm just quite aware of rotating mass. Things like titanium pegs and other titanium components will probably be added here and there when funds permit. Bit of a general question but how light is it possible to get an X, considering all things like lights, hand guards, disc guards etc will be removed?

[FORMA MOTO]

With a full tank of gas (2.0 gal) you can expect a wet weight of about 255 as described........about 20 more than an R, but it will feel like 40 more...

[surrender]

And another un educated question quickly. What is stopping me putting a complete 450r engine in to save all the rotating weight? Mounts or just the shape itself? 

[FORMA MOTO]

And another un educated question quickly. What is stopping me putting a complete 450r engine in to save all the rotating weight? Mounts or just the shape itself? 

 

Well, your MOT will go right out the window, first of all.........

[Mert]

pretty sure you'd have to modify the frame to make the R motor fit. Whats the law that allows you to make a X streetable but not an R? Why couldnt you just put lights and a new stator on an R and take it on the streets. That's what I did for my supermoto and its great. I just picked up an X for the trails so soon I'll be able to feel the differences in these bikes.

[surrender]

MOT is Ministry of Transport? Not sure about the terminology over there. Over here bikes come with a compliance plate from factory which shows that the vehicle has met ADR and has the required ID numbers etc to be entered into the system for registration (plating). Without that compliance plate it's no use trying to get anything street legal. Otherwise I would not go to such lengths obviously.

[DMC707]

I am  lucky enough to have 2 of these beast's in the stable ----      One devoted to  straight up moto and GP oriented races  -- the other is a dual sport that i ride in the woods a lot

 

The moto machine pictured below is built similar to what you are describing  ---    I ditched the kickstand, odometer, lighting and a few aftermarket off-road oriented bits that were on there when i got it -- this did not save nearly as much as one would think --- the kickstand is hollow and is quite light (to get rid of the kickstand, you need an R model footpeg mount for that side -- easy to get from ebay )   ---- You'll notice that i simply retained the hollowed out front plate ---  this gives me the option to throw the light back in there if i ever want to -- but mostly, i just like it -- it separates my bike from the sea of old CRF's out there

 

The motor was built with a higher compression piston, R series cam, and a bit of port work -- it had a lightweight MRD full exhaust on when i purchased it, - so i retained that -- obviously, i have optimized the jetting for the mods and the airbox has been opened up a bit.    

 

    For the chassis, i had the suspension set up for moto -- its great for a natural terrain track or a GP style track, --- to handle supercross type obstacles , i would have to go in a different direction with the valving though for sure --- It can handle it , but it doesnt like it ---- and if i were regularly riding tracks like that  - you know, short, peaky and lipped out jumps, bowl type 180 turns, etc --- i would get a bike more suited for that

 

       It has a Scotts/Ohlins steering damper, and thus far i haven't felt a need to mess with the triple clamps  --- I have a set of 22's off an 08 R model sitting in a box waiting to try out ,  --- but it hasn't been a factor yet  -- the bike handles great for me --  a large portion of the handling is proper suspension setup, proper spring rates for weight and running 100-105mm of sag when you have the right amount of static sag  

    Also, dont ever overlook the importance of the right set of tires for the terrain you are riding ---  mine works great with the old MX51 Dunlops , and the new MX 52 works well, -- havent tried the AT81 yet though but i've heard good things there too

 

           This bike is an '07 , so i installed an '08 - up tank and shrouds  --- this really made the bike feel thinner through the cockpit -- as well, when i did that, i was able to shave down the duckbill platypus portion of the front of the seat foam a little to fit the tank better    ---   sure i could've just bought an 08-up seat too, but doing a little bit of surgery with a razor blade only took a minute

 

I adjust the gearing specs for the sprocket and countershaft based on the terrain i'm riding ---  if its a wide open GP , i have a 48-14 setup , but for the MX track a 14-51 works good    (The stock 13-51 setup works best in the deep woods )

 

 

 

Here is X  #2 ,  although you cant see the tag and the blinkers have been removed , it is street legal and has a Baja Designs dual sport kit  -- The headlamp is retro looking, but again, i thought it made my bike look a tad bit unique and i liked it  

         This bike looks similar,  (and is similar) -- but the build is oriented towards the mud and the trees far more than the above bike 

 

I retained the stock tank --- if you compare the 2, you can see the stock tank wraps around the front frame spar , while the newer tank does not, which makes it narrower and gives it a lighter feel

     But i needed a bit of capacity so i retained the stock 05-07 tank on this one -- but i dont ride long enough loops generally to require an oversize tank, - the stocker is good for 45 miles off-road the way i ride (roughly 20 mpg ) - and thats good enough for me --  only had to put it on reserve once in the past 18 months

 

This motor is bone stock with the jetting cleaned up --- nothing done to the airbox at all  though -----  The exhaust  might add a little bit of zip to it, but honestly after the jetting is cleaned up, the stock motor is fast enough for its mission parameters

 

The suspension is less aggressive than my GP machine's, but it is far stiffer than a lot of off-roaders typically like, still  ---   this is in deference to the 2 foot high sand whoops that litter the terrain i ride in  -- as well as the fact that i am a much larger guy than the typical motocross hero

 

 

To be honest ,   I ride the dual sport machine 95% of the time  --- i ride in the woods a lot ,  but i have no qualms about taking it on a motocross course ---  since the suspension valving is softer than my GP bike, its a bit more important that i be precise and backside everything properly as there is not as much margin for error as i have with the stiffer setup,   but its a far more versatile bike for my uses   -----   and i have a big stack of sprockets and change the gearing around to suit whatever terrain i am riding --    

 

     The GP machine is  simply too much motor for a lot of riding that i do --- i dont know the horsepower numbers, but it is fast   ---  fast as in being more than a match for late model dedicated MX bikes  ---  it is fun, but can be tiring --- while the stock, but optimized, dual sport i can ride all day seemingly

 

Personally, (and the only reason i add this is the personality and riding style of an individual -- plus his prior machinery can affect perception of the current stuff)  -- i am a former 10 year  mx'er who was out of the sport for 15 years until i came back as an Over-35'er , now over-40.       I was riding Yamaha's before i sold them in favor of these 2 Honda's  --- i used a 09 YZf450R and a late model YZ250 2 stroke to handle similar duties to what i do with the 2 X'es now

 

     In comparison, my hopped up X is faster than my YZF  ,  handles better (that model YZF tended to push in corners until it reached its limit, then it would stand up and try to climb out of ruts )  , but does feel noticeably heavier in the air   ---  by handling better, i mean it will stick a rut and flat out turn underneath a Yamaha MX bike 

 

        Its not fair to compare an X to a 250 2 stroke though --- the riding experience is completely different -- but i'm a bit anal about lap times ,  and on equivalent loops , i'm still faster on an X by a bit  -- but i work harder for it in the deep woods   ---  even the stock X feels like it has tons more torque than a 250 mx bike even if the peak power is probably similar 

 

I just wrote you a book -----  but so far the X has proven itself to me to be the most versatile motorcycle i  have ever owned  ----   with the same bike, i can technically cruise up to starbucks for a latte , then later that afternoon , load it in the truck and go pound out moto's at the local track ,  or get out in the woods and do my best dick Burleson impression   -

 

     Marshall Plumb (former factory wrench for Guy Cooper, Brian Swink, Larry Ward , and others, and current Dunlop honcho  ) - built my motor and did the suspension on my full-tilt-boogie machine   ---  I just told him to  "make it fast"  - and he called on some of his HRC buddies for specs on getting it to breathe fire  ,   but when it was done and i was comparing it to the write up Krannie (Kah-Ran-Nee) did to his   (and others on here ) ,  the work is similar  with the exception that i built mine with new Titanium valves and resisted the temptation to go stainless  ----    after consulting with Marshall, we decided the extra rev's on the big end were worth retaining with the lighter valvetrain at the expense of greater service intervals.

          Guys have been making these bikes breathe hellfire, yet still be reliable enough to handle 1000 miles in Baja for a while now, so there are very few true secrets out there in squeezing more performance out of the engines

 

And regarding the battery/starter  ?     Thats the first thing that made me want one of these in the first place  -- my desire to have an electric start bike since my knees are trashed ----  I'd recommend keeping 'em ---   initially i wanted an E-button bike, but couldnt afford a KTM  SX  ----  and 6 months later i had so much invested in my 2 bikes i could have bought 2 nice late model KTM's ,  but why bother -----   as i have already alluded to , -- the X'es  have been performing damn good for me

 

I am also not blindly brand loyal -----  i am pretty excited to try out the new Yamaha YZF-X bike --- its a 250, - but i think it would be great for deep woods racing  where the 20-30 pound weight savings would be great   -----   

 

 

But seriously --- i hope your experiences with your X are as good as mine  --- but to summarize the most important things are proper suspension setup, good tires and the right gearing for your terrain   --- after that, more motor work is way down on the list after you've done the airbox mods, cleaned up the stock jetting and maybe install a freer breathing exhaust  ----  its fast enough with those couple of things done  that the motor is not a liability in vet A class motocross 

 

        I admit it took me a while to get it properly set up though ---- i said to myself several times - "why did i sell my YZ's?" -- but now i'd never go back    ---   

Edited December 6, 2014 by DMC707

[surrender]

Mate that is a huge amount of helpful information, appreciate you explaining it all in detail. Sounds like the first bike is similar to what I want but without all of the power mods for now. How noticeable is the weight in the air compared to a another 4 stroke 450 MX bike? With it set up like you have done and covered nearly every aspect of it, would you still notice any major downfalls going from that bike to say, a 450R of the same year? I just want to be realistic about what I can achieve. Haven't really seen any road legal MX bikes over here. I want to make it possible.

[DMC707]

Mate that is a huge amount of helpful information, appreciate you explaining it all in detail. Sounds like the first bike is similar to what I want but without all of the power mods for now. How noticeable is the weight in the air compared to a another 4 stroke 450 MX bike? With it set up like you have done and covered nearly every aspect of it, would you still notice any major downfalls going from that bike to say, a 450R of the same year? I just want to be realistic about what I can achieve. Haven't really seen any road legal MX bikes over here. I want to make it possible.

 

 

Y'know --- when i was on yamaha's ---  i rode a handful of buddy's 450R Honda's and that influenced my opinion to try an X  (as i said before - an e-button was a huge consideration for me)   ----   when i rode the Honda 450's and experienced the handling, even with suspension not set up for me , - i was impressed and ready to change

    ----  the first X i bought was my dual sport -- it was bone stock with less than 20 hours on it - all i did was ride it on a turn track for 5 minutes and it handled close enough to an R model on a turn track to sell me   ---     It took a while to get it completely dialled in due to financial restrictions honestly --- so i kept my YZf for a while until i was comfortable in selling it  

        --- once Factory Connection set up the suspension  and i rode it twice, --- the YZF was on the sale market within a couple of days 

 

Back to the question though -------   up in the air ---   the YZF was absolutely more comfortable in the air  ---     on a 250 2 stroke, i feel like i am Brett Cue at times, (thats a biiiig exaggeration, but thats how i feel - the bikes are FUN)   --- the light feeling 2 stroke is so easy to whip and flick that it makes me feel like a kid riding it    ----

               ---   the pure YZF race bike was a bit more reluctant for me to whip, change lines in the air, and make adjustments   , - but it wasn't tough to jump  - but its the reason you dont see any freestyle guys using 450 4 strokes - they have a lot of flywheel effect and the natural tendency is to go straight ,     --

 

             --        The X really takes the tendencies i described with the YZF and amplifies them a bit ,   compared to a 250 2 stroke, the 450 mx'er feels like a heavy bike, but really isnt that heavy -----   A 450 X or 450 WR actually IS heavy compared to a 2 stroke 250 -   the weight is up a bit higher  and i would say the X is definitely a more reluctant jumper than either a 250 2s  or a pure 450 MX'er   ---- It will make all the jumps a guy can stand ,  but you have to power the bike up the jump face until the back wheel lifts off  ---  then chop the throttle immediately to keep from going nose high   ----    this is a common complaint for 4 strokes anyway, but seems exaggerated on the X, -- and i think thats honestly the engine placement and the top heavy feel

 

                  If you swap the  thick 18" rear wheel for a 19" with a low profile tire and lightweight tubes , you may free up some unsprung weight and reduce this tendency a bit though --- but i don't think there is anything you can do to make it feel as agile in the air as a pure MX'er  ---- 

 

       The bitch of it is , is it has no problem making any of the jumps on the tracks i ride that are within my power to do so  (as in, no 60 foot doubles, -- but an 80 foot tabletop with a gentle landing slope is fair game ,   but just being honest,  most vet riders can charge the tabletops ,  but we try our best to "bubba scrub"  and single single the doubles so we can all make it to work on Monday 

 

    If i were to be totally honest --- if fun in the air was actually a priority for me , --- i would have a different bike ,   --- at my age , jumps on the track are tolerated and rarely enjoyed  (exceptions being a 250 2 stroke or something, as i mentioned)    ---  hell, the original Unadilla GP track only had 4 or 5 jumps and the Carlsbad GP track had 4 i think  -- but that was 30 years ago too 

 

that said, once i learned to employ the technique the X needs  , its ok ---   these pics are from a solo training session at our  NMA Grand National track in Oklahoma  (the bike is still the same with exception of the plastics )      ---  and some of the representative jumps the X is comfortable with -- ie big tabletops and small doubles  --- every 85cc intermediate there  can whip it flat over the same jumps  ?

               but at my age, and on a bike with a street legal tag, it feels pretty good to be out there doing the same stuff  ---  only i dont lay the big bike flat ,  my thoughts are getting to the backside and getting on the gas a bit faster so i can charge the corners

 

This brings up one last thought and a reminder to me ---- on a high speed MX track, the front brake is do-able but a 270mm rotor kit is not a bad idea  --- in off road conditions its rarely a factor, but on a slam-bang MX track, the small rotor gets hot quick and starts to fade     --- but hey the bike is 8 years old and is using at least 12-15 year old technology  

 

---------    one other factor is the gearing --- the X feels much better on a jumpy track with the gearing opened up --- with stock 13/51 gearing , it feels like a tractor, and you can roll around an MX track in 4th gear, but 1st and 2nd are almost un-usable    

 

            .    A Hinson  slipper clutch would also likely  have a better feel on a track,  than the Rekluse's i use , but the Rekluse (i'm using a Core EXP with a Rekluse billet basket on both bikes)  turns the bike into a full blown  luxury cruiser ---- but the clutch feels the exact same as stock if i actually feel like using the clutch that day in a normal fashion

 

              3        

 

 

[surrender]

Awesome, you guys are legends posting such extensive replies. I think I will be able to achieve what I want with the X, I will start off with suspension, then work slowly through everything else and if I find I am being held back by the rotating mass of the motor then I am going to shoehorn a cr500 motor into it just for fun and because I can never have a project that is completely finished.. At least that way I retain the frame and the elements it needs to stay road legal here in NSW. 

[DMC707]

Awesome, you guys are legends posting such extensive replies. I think I will be able to achieve what I want with the X, I will start off with suspension, then work slowly through everything else and if I find I am being held back by the rotating mass of the motor then I am going to shoehorn a cr500 motor into it just for fun and because I can never have a project that is completely finished.. At least that way I retain the frame and the elements it needs to stay road legal here in NSW. 

Have fun with it ----  On the track , my modified X is faster and easier to ride than a converted 500 2 stroke

 

The aluminum frame 2 stroke conversions handle like garbage and vibrate worse than the originals as the steel frames helped dampen things a bit  (I have a couple of weekends worth of track time on 250F chassis with a CR500 motor in there- Service Honda conversion )  

 

You might experiment with taking some weight off the flywheel before turning the motor into an anchor  -- dont know if an R model flywheel would bolt on or not , but the stock one may be able to be machined down   (thats assuming this even becomes a consideration ) 

Edited December 12, 2014 by DMC707

[FORMA MOTO]

Have fun with it ----  On the track , my modified X is faster and easier to ride than a converted 500 2 stroke

 

The aluminum frame 2 stroke conversions handle like garbage and vibrate worse than the originals as the steel frames helped dampen things a bit  (I have a couple of weekends worth of track time on 250F chassis with a CR500 motor in there- Service Honda conversion )  

 

You might experiment with taking some weight off the flywheel before turning the motor into an anchor  -- dont know if an R model flywheel would bolt on or not , but the stock one may be able to be machined down   (thats assuming this even becomes a consideration ) 

 

Boy do I agree with that.

I sold mine after building one after a few rides. Vibrated so badly I could not see when sitting, down under power...