14'KTM500exc re-map or TPS?

[KennyMc]

I will admit I know nothing about how these systems work, I have a desk job and haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in years. But in my conversations with a KTM certified mechanic with the ability and tool to install any and all maps in a bike, he has mentioned the idling for 5 minutes when making mapping changes (for the addition of an aftermarket pipe), and in riding elevation changes greater than 6,000'.

[sirthumpalot]

Just be glad your bike isn't "ride-by-wire"...

.

I believe some of the street bikes are, so it's not as much of a stretch as you might think. Traction control can be more effective when the computer controls the throttle.

[oldfuddy]

I believe some of the street bikes are, so it's not as much of a stretch as you might think. Traction control can be more effective when the computer controls the throttle.

My 1290SD is... I've been at the track and I can lay down quicker laps with TC "on" the short track than I can with TC off. It also has a Supermoto mode which keeps ABS on the front but gives me complete control of the rear. As for all the electronic assists, if you turn everything off, you best be paying attention as 180hp on a 400lb naked bike turns telephone poles into a picket fence real quick. But, we're off subject, back to the 500 and all the fueling crap that can be difficult to fully understand...

[cadman_ks]

I don't know where this rumor started, but it makes no sense to me at all.

I know that we've talked about this in this thread a little bit.

I personally have never asked a certified KTM mechanic about this, BUT the one thing that I did do, was I read the owner's manual, and it does not state anything about needing to do this.  The only "slight" mention of this, is under Statring, where it says:  "Engine Failure   High engine speed in cold engines have a negative effect on the service life of the engine.  Always warm up the enginer at low engine speeds"  It doesn't say anything about how long to warm up, it just says warm up.  It doesn't say anything about higher elevations and needed to let the FI acclimate to a different elevation.

I know with my bike, I do NOT follow this, and my bike has ran perfectly at elevation.  Do I know if it's adjusting as I go?  No, I don't.  I know that to me, it seemed to run just as good at 12,000' as it did at 1500'.

 

Is it possible that this is a hold over from racing?  Isn't it generally a good idea to get your bike to operating temperature BEFORE a race starts, so that if it runs the same at the beginning as at the end?   Or is this a hold over from the "warm your engine up", and somehow that has been translated to 5 min at different elevations?

 

Here's my take: If this was critically important to the proper functioning of the bike at higher elevations, wouldn't KTM have put that in the owner's manual or service manual, or in print somewhere?

 

Has anyone actually seen this in any KTM print?  Not what a mechanic says, but in print?  I don't have a service manual, so I can't look it up in there.  That's the other place that I would think that this would be in, if it were indeed a procedure we were supposed to follow...

 

CADman_KS

[cadman_ks]

...

 I know that to me, it seemed to run just as good at 12,000' as it did at 1500'.

...

 

I guess that I lied, unknowingly.

 

One thing that we haven't even talked about, is that there is a loss in power just due to less air.  That's regardless of what's going on, or not going on in the FI / carb.

 

Here's a formula widely distributed on the interweb:

 

HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000

 

So, at 12,000' my bike WAS down on power, by somewhere around 35%.  I couldn't tell, but then again, I don't ride my bike to the point that I can tell.  I do know, however, that this was a lot more "noticeable" when I had a carbed bike.  I would set my bike for an altitude of something like 10,000', and it would run fine at 8,000' and 12,000', but wouldn't run as well above and below that.  With jetting, you have to set your carb more for a range.  With FI, that range is unlimited, but you're still down on power with either setup at altitude, just due to the density of the air...

 

CADman_KS

[oldfuddy]

Something equally important to remember is "we" don't operate at 100% either when at 12k'.

[C6DNA]

A blower or turbo will fix it...

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[cadman_ks]

Something equally important to remember is "we" don't operate at 100% either when at 12k'.

Good point...

[Spud786]

Im not exactly positive, without an 02 sensor how well the ktm exc (ecu_ can adjust for air temperature. I know in my carb bikes, I really haven't had to adjust fueling from 100 degrees down to 30 degrees, if the fueling is in a good range, works fine in both with no adjustment required.

I think if the bike is set up rich at 30 degrees, it will probably have issue at 100 degrees, because its not set up in a good range to work in both environments.

[mjruopp]

Im not exactly positive, without an 02 sensor how well the ktm exc (ecu_ can adjust for air temperature. I know in my carb bikes, I really haven't had to adjust fueling from 100 degrees down to 30 degrees, if the fueling is in a good range, works fine in both with no adjustment required.

I think if the bike is set up rich at 30 degrees, it will probably have issue at 100 degrees, because its not set up in a good range to work in both environments.

The ECU trims the fuel map based on on intake air temperature. It works well enough without an O2 sensor.

[Spud786]

The ECU trims the fuel map based on on intake air temperature. It works well enough without an O2 sensor.

One thing with the valve cover hooked to the intake, that heat aids or increases with entering air temp as you mention(interference). But when I had it connected once the bike was really hot, like a lot of slow speed / idleing, I saw weird Popping begin to happen. Presently running no interference intake, so its natural air intake outside temp, that's part of the desmog that I didn't do initially.

[mjruopp]

The PCV hose that goes from the valve cover to the intake boot should not affect the intake air temp sensor, which should measure temperature inside the air box (haven't located it yet on this bike)... it's for crankcase emissions control, not a carburetor heater device like on some older bikes.

[Spud786]

My intake port is inside the airbox before entry into the throttle body just beyond the air filter, I would think this would definitely effect the air temp once past the filter if venting hot vapor? atleast that's the only thing Ive seen come out of it, is hot vapor and it contains moisture, and its not oil.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Spud786

[mjruopp]

My intake port is inside the airbox before entry into the throttle body just beyond the air filter, I would think this would definitely effect the air temp once past the filter if venting hot vapor? atleast that's the only thing Ive seen come out of it, is hot vapor and it contains moisture, and its not oil.

 

The crank case vapors entering the intake charge are relatively small quantity, unless you have a problem with the engine. In any case, I'm sure the KTM engineers have accounted for that in their speed-density calculations. I don't know a vehicle produces that doesn't vent the crankcase to intake

[Spud786]

Yes , this is the only bike Ive don't this to, I haven't done it to other bikes with the vapor hose going to the intake, I decided to try it since I was working on an issue and was part of my desmog package anyway, Originally I just let the original hose hang with intake port plugged, and seem to like it okay( no negatives), so when I did my valve adjust I installed the hose provided with the kit.

[Naf]

I have to say i just remapped my bike with the latest EU file, and wow, it kicks just like my 450sxf did. Now i have the ability to add the MAP switch, and calibrate via the UST.

 

I know i have the Bazzaz on my bike, but at least i may adjust the idle and main fuel trim from the ecu and let the Bazzaz make small adjustments rather than large ones. With the addition of the Map switch, i should have more power and more fun zippin around on the road.