X TRAINER suspension

[hawaiidirtrider]

Agreed!

I have an extra set of showa 47's and matching front wheel complete with disk spacers and axle....all I need is a front brake if I don't want to steel one off my 01 cr.

I also have a matching tripple clamp set.

My thought was to see if I could fab up a new stem that will bolt up to the xt neck.

But before I go that far, I want to see if I can massage the xt fork some....just waiting on springs.

Or take the motor out of the xt and throw it in the cr frame..."na, just kiddin...but it is an interesting thought.

It's weird how that old 01 cr 250 setup can get to you. I loved mine . .and that isn't even the best 3rd generation frame..but it handles great for technical offroad. I can still ride my friends 01 and still automatically feel totally comfortable on that bike. i can imagine that the shorter faster turning xtrainer might feel great but there's some adapting to do on your part and for setup.

[moto9]

So, I received the heavier springs,  installed the fork spring....I broke open the cartridge and this is what I found.

I'm not sure I fully understand how the oil flows through the pistons....at best I have an educated guess.

There are two cupped pistons with small shim stacks on one side and a semi check plate on the other.

The pistons have an inner ring of port holes and an outer ring of slot type ports 4 total.

The inner ring is shimmed on the inside or cupped side of the piston and the semi check plate covers the slotted ports.

The base valve assembly sits on a coned bolt.

How I think the flow of oil works is, as the rod moves into the cart the oil is forced up past the cone and through slots past the check plate, as pressure builds it's bleed off throught the shim stack.

I think reshimming the stack and limiting check plate travel it a way to get some adjustment out of the fork, may also be able to build a shimmed valve to replace the check plate.

Not sure what can be done to improve the action......this valving is all new to me......as it looks testing is going to take some time.

 

Base valve

 

inside cupped area, shim stack covers small inner ring of ports

 

shim stack installed on post, piston sits down over stack

 

BV assembled, notice check plate gap

 

BV assemble threads into bottom of cart.

 

rebound/mid valve assembly same type of piston, check plate is ported differently.

[moto9]

So, after stairing at the funky design long enough, I think I figured out how the oil flows through the cartridge.

During the compression stroke the BV check plate closes off the outter ring slotted ports...(I'll now call the rebound ports)

The rounded openings in the check plate allow oil to bypass it and flow through the inner ring of ports, (I'll call the compression ports) then on through the valve stack.

The piston on the end of the rod (midvalve/rebound valve) acts in the same manner, so there is a way to adjust oil flow and stiffen up the fork ..."to some degree"

Also, the rebound bleed circuit is uni-directional, meaning as the rebound is adjusted stiffer or softer so is the compression...."one affects the other"

Same goes for the rear shock.

I have a few ideas to try out including """mabye"""flipping the mv/reb piston, I did this on a shiver 45 fork that worked out well.

But, I think if I can limit the float gap in the mv check plate (being speed sensitive) would slow the excessive fork dive.

This is when you need a couple weeks vacation.

[shaheeb]

the one thing I am not sure about on this xtrainer is the suspension.  ours came ultra soft and very fast rebound. 

 

need to turn the rebound litle by little till it feels better.  Is there a special tool needed for the fork adjustments?

[moto9]

the one thing I am not sure about on this xtrainer is the suspension.  ours came ultra soft and very fast rebound. 

 

need to turn the rebound litle by little till it feels better.  Is there a special tool needed for the fork adjustments?

Yes, stock it is a very soft set-up.

So far here's what I know.

The fork: / stock oil volume is 500 cc /.80kg stock spring.

Heavier springs are a definite improvement, I installed a set on my bike earlier in the week and today I busted out about 20 miles of 2nd and 3rd gear single track, with some faster sections.

I felt the bike had far better handling and control, it also seemed to corner better....much more stable than before.

At 190ish A/B rider,  I went with a .84 front spring, but I feel that it's still too soft for me, so I'm asking my dealer to get me a .88

Adjusting rebound also adjusts the compression.

Tools: You will need,,, the fork spring removal tool, if your planing on changing springs, to get into the valving you'll need a 29mm cart holding tool.

I had to shorten a couple of allens to get at the reb adj, and preload adj....bars were in the way.

 

Shock: stock spring is a 5.2kg

I went with a 5.6 spring, but felt it was too soft for me so I asked my dealer to order a 6.0.

Same When adjusting the rebound, it also affects compression.

No special tools needed to chande the spring.

Shock can be removed out the side once you pull the muffler and the linkage triangle.

MHO, it's important to get the xt to ride higher in the stroke "with rider weight added" from what I could see the Olie suspension is a fairly simple design in compairson to race suspension, so adjusting is limited...maybe if Beta sells enough units some suspension company will come out with a kit.

I will post up any changes I feel were benificial...as I continue to test some different ideas.

Edited June 15, 2015 by moto9

[shaheeb]

I had a chance to ride our xtrainer for the first time this weekend and the suspension leaves much to be desired.

Does anyone have any info that could help with setting the basics like clickers and sag for the Beta? How about other options(fork swaps or rear shocks or valving experts)? Was looking at stillwell and LTR, maybe even ESR for tuning. I do have a set of stillwell valved 07 honda showas, a triple clamp set, front wheel, and brakes that may swap over. I know the beta has smaller fork tubes; 43mm? Does anyone know the offset of the beta triples? it would be good to keep the offsets the same if I end of trying the swap.

My xtrainer feels like the rebound is xtremely fast and very nervous. 24 miles in all kinds of terrain has me loving the bike and hating the suspension please help ?

My wife whom the bike was bought for says it feels 'loose' too haha

[moto9]

I had a chance to ride our xtrainer for the first time this weekend and the suspension leaves much to be desired.

Does anyone have any info that could help with setting the basics like clickers and sag for the Beta? How about other options(fork swaps or rear shocks or valving experts)? Was looking at stillwell and LTR, maybe even ESR for tuning. I do have a set of stillwell valved 07 honda showas, a triple clamp set, front wheel, and brakes that may swap over. I know the beta has smaller fork tubes; 43mm? Does anyone know the offset of the beta triples? it would be good to keep the offsets the same if I end of trying the swap.

My xtrainer feels like the rebound is xtremely fast and very nervous. 24 miles in all kinds of terrain has me loving the bike and hating the suspension please help ?

My wife whom the bike was bought for says it feels 'loose' too haha

I too was looking at adapting a set of showas, my idea was to fab up a new stem that fits the honda t-clamp and the beta bearings..any machinist should be able to do it.

As far as fitment, length, rake and trail, unknown until you get it bolted up...but before I go that route I want to see what I can do with the stock stuff.

I think that "currently" the suspension is an unknown to most or all suspension companies due to the fact that the bike is new, so you probably won't see much help there...at least yet.

You can fix a lot of the loose feel with heavier springs and maybe switching to 10w oil, Just a suggestion...if you decide to respring go heavier than the chart says..by a range or 2.

lastly, If you have a local suspension guy you could talk to him about dropping off the bike and letting him break down the forks and shock to see what he can do.

[Danceswithtrees]

You guys are making me nervous about the X's suspension.  That's been my only concern about this bike and I'm really hoping it's not old XR200 soft!  Even though I mostly ride rocks and not racing anymore, there's still times we're running hard on faster trail.  I ran sweep at the Loose Moose enduro this weekend through one of the faster sections and it was pretty rough, whoops, braking bumps etc.  I was wondering as I was riding if the Xtrainer could handle this.  Hopefully a good shop will put some time into one and develop some good tuning for them.  I'd be willing to give up my boingers during the winter to let someone experiment. 

[moto9]

Rider weight is a factor.

The latest set up I used wasn't too bad...don't expect showa or kyb quality suspension.

Biggest problem I see is the fork and shock riding too low in the stroke.

[Danceswithtrees]

Rider weight is a factor.

The latest set up I used wasn't too bad...don't expect showa or kyb quality suspension.

Biggest problem I see is the fork and shock riding too low in the stroke.

I'm 160 lbs w/o gear.  Most stock springs are pretty close for me.  I'm certainly not expecting race quality suspension but I am hoping it can be worked over if needed. 

[moto9]

Ya, I have 30 lbs on you.

Get some seat time, then decide if you need to address the suspension.

[shaheeb]

I am 160 as well. Tonight I checked static sag at 18mm. Rider sag around 82mm with boots and backpack. These numbers suggest I need an even softer spring! Wtf haha

Anyway. I think the clickers can be helpful with improvements. I made those comments based on a stock as delivered ride. Now it's time to get busy. Moto9 are you mostly riding Kahuku?

If You ever get to fabricating a custom stem I would be interested in one too!!! Have some showas on a Ktm on Oahu right now. To be sold soon so the Showa's will want to help out

Les at lt racing told me he would be comfortable diving into the Olle suspension. Only thing is if we send to Les we would be turning it into my bike and not my wife's

Edited June 16, 2015 by shaheeb

[moto9]

I am 160 as well. Tonight I checked static sag at 18mm. Rider sag around 82mm with boots and backpack. These numbers suggest I need an even softer spring! &%$#@! haha

Anyway. I think the clickers can be helpful with improvements. I made those comments based on a stock as delivered ride. Now it's time to get busy. Moto9 are you mostly riding Kahuku?

If You ever get to fabricating a custom stem I would be interested in one too!!! Have some showas on a Ktm on Oahu right now. To be sold soon so the Showa's will want to help out

Les at lt racing told me he would be comfortable diving into the Olle suspension. Only thing is if we send to Les we would be turning it into my bike and not my wife's

I'm not sure stock sag number mean much with the stock valving, because it blows throught the stroke so easily.

Letting Les dive into the fork and shock is a great idea....he knows his stuff!...I would even hand my forks and shock over to him if he came up with something really good.

He might need the bike to test.....at 160lbs on a trail revalve, I think it would be fine for your wife.

I was in the fork again this morning and trying to figure out a way to build a mv similuar to late model designs, but without a lathe and/or mill it an't happening.

Because the check plate is uni-directional, I can't place any other shims above or below it, so once it opens flow is restricted only by float gap, port size and oil weigh...for now I'm trying to stay with 5w.

However, I found that I could restrict flow through the check plate circuit by increasing the diameter of the face shim or base shim, on the opposing side of the piston's shim stack, thereby decreasing the check valve port size of the piston....which I did.....and it's definetly stiffer.

Not ideal, but a cheap way to increase damping control.

Won't be riding until Sunday....I'll report back how it felt.

I'm on the big island, but planing a group ride trip to Oahu in September.

Edited June 16, 2015 by moto9

[Odysseus]

 In respect to the xt's suspension.You cant polish a turd.If your buying a xtrainer for its potential as a race bike it's complete folly and your  barking up the wrong tree. Accept it for what it is and don't look back. You want a serious play bike get a rr.

[Old Plonker]

 In respect to the xt's suspension.You cant polish a turd.If your buying a xtrainer for its potential as a race bike it's complete folly and your  barking up the wrong tree. Accept it for what it is and don't look back. You want a serious play bike get a rr.

 

I think I'd agree with you if you said, "If you want a race bike get an RR." But for a serious play bike for the weak and vertically challenged, the XT has something that is prohibitively costly to add on after the fact: smaller size, and lighter weight. What I think I'm hearing from people trying to improve the XT's suspension is, "I just want it to be good enough that it can keep a good trail pace, equal to my skill, without pitching me on my head." It seems sprung and valved from the factory mainly  to not be intimidating to the new rider. Moto9 seems to be after what I want: to have the suspension ride up in the stroke, with the proper spring rates, and effective damping. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be good enough.

[Odysseus]

I still think a rr is a better starting point if you cant accept the XT in its stock form. Most everyone wants custom spring rates and valving so why not start with the rr. Source the shorter springs, same price and lower the forks and shock internally and while  at it re shuffle the shims. Add a lower seat and fiddle with the power valve so it doesn't open all the way and your done.Totally reversible to boot. As far as magic no tuner including Merlin the magician is going to work any magic on a couple of glorified broom handles.

Edited June 16, 2015 by widebear

[Danceswithtrees]

I still think a rr is a better starting point if you cant accept the XT in its stock form. Most everyone wants custom spring rates and valving so why not start with the rr. Source the shorter springs, same price and lower the forks and shock internally and while  at it re shuffle the shims. Add a lower seat and fiddle with the power valve so it doesn't open all the way and your done.Totally reversible to boot. As far as magic no tuner including Merlin the magician is going to work any magic on a couple of glorified broom handles.

Maybe, but the 300rr will still be a bigger heavier bike, even lowered. It will also give up ground clearance and have less than the XT.  Plus it's $1200 more which would go a long way to improving the XT's suspension.  The XT package just fits some of us real well, it's a bike concept we've been waiting for, if you're young and average or above average height you might not understand.  Me, I'm retired from racing, I just want to play in the rocks and really technical stuff.  I don't expect the XT to be able to ride race pace.  Hell for what I ride I could've gotten a trials bike, but I want a seat and something that can comfortably ride single track too.  It's not perfect but it's the best offering I've seen so far in a smaller lighter bike. 

[jmd426]

I don't think I'd write off the xt's suspension just yet. Just because it cant be fixed in someones garage, with a set of springs and hand full of shims, by someone that doesn't have much experience with suspension doesn't mean there junk. The after market suspension guys will be all over this soon. They may not be able to make them up to pro level ability, but more than good enough for 95% of people No worries!

[moto9]

Wildbear I don't just accept anything...I'll work it and rework until I get somewhere, or I throw in the towel....and jmd426 I hope your right!

Until then I'll continue to try to improve it.

But, probably best to stop posting about it, at least for now.

[Odysseus]

Honestly rather than dithering with the stock forks. A set of early nineties  vintage gas gas WP 43 mm forks would be a better alternative in my view for the high performance oriented rider. Plenty of  flex in a good way and a much higher degree of tune ability.They are available for around $200.00 or less