Power delivery Diff between 2015-2016 430rr

[jmd426]

I was wondering if the 2016 fi 430rr still has the butter smooth finesse power as the 2015 carb 430 had, also interested in hearing the same for the 500rs?

Mainly wanting to make sure there not more like the ktm's more stepped and abrupt power.

[FORMA MOTO]

KTM's abrupt power?

Nothing is smoother (way too smooth) than the KTM's. 

So soft you have clutch the F out of them to get them going.

Peaky too.

 

The reviews say the 430 is more agreesive in the midrange than with the carb'd bike, and have a wider powerband, but still not at all peaky.

[jmd426]

KTM's abrupt power?

Nothing is smoother (way too smooth) than the KTM's. 

So soft you have clutch the F out of them to get them going.

Peaky too.

 

The reviews say the 430 is more agreesive in the midrange than with the carb'd bike, and have a wider powerband, but still not at all peaky.

I'm talking about creep mod speed in very tight single track.  For instance a stepper motor with say 50 steps vs one with 200.  Fine throttle control, when i road carbed 430 it was amazing what fine control you had at low rpm, small throttle openings and no flame out. Its what made the beta so amazing for a 430/450 sized bike. IMO.  Supper nice guy when needed and pissed off punk when you crack it hard. I find that the ktm's and jap bikes are not as smooth (Refined) in that area. Could just be my experience tho.  I was just hoping beta didn't lose any of that greatness.

 

The synerject fuel injection has been working great for sherco and on the beta 350s but wanted to see if any one has any real seat time comparison of the 430/500 carb and fi differences or lack of.

[jmd426]

KTM's abrupt power?

Nothing is smoother (way too smooth) than the KTM's. 

So soft you have clutch the F out of them to get them going.

Peaky too.

 

The reviews say the 430 is more agreesive in the midrange than with the carb'd bike, and have a wider powerband, but still not at all peaky.

Have you been able to snag a ride Yet?

[FORMA MOTO]

Have you been able to snag a ride Yet?

 

No

 

I actually have found the dealers to be pricks. (4) separage dealers.

 

No returned phone calls, emails or texts.

 

Pretty dissapointing.

[FORMA MOTO]

I'm talking about creep mod speed in very tight single track.  For instance a stepper motor with say 50 steps vs one with 200.  Fine throttle control, when i road carbed 430 it was amazing what fine control you had at low rpm, small throttle openings and no flame out. Its what made the beta so amazing for a 430/450 sized bike. IMO.  Supper nice guy when needed and pissed off punk when you crack it hard. I find that the ktm's and jap bikes are not as smooth (Refined) in that area. Could just be my experience tho.  I was just hoping beta didn't lose any of that greatness.

 

The synerject fuel injection has been working great for sherco and on the beta 350s but wanted to see if any one has any real seat time comparison of the 430/500 carb and fi differences or lack of.

 

You are talking about TPS and mapping, not power. 

 

My 450, 500, and 350 all had that problem.

 

Just another little 'secret' the magazines don't reveal about KTM's not quite 'finished' designs.

 

You can fix that on a KTM in about 45 seconds with a TPS adjustment and a map change.

On the '13's and later, you can acutally get the power delivery competely linear off idle with a map change.....too bad they are still peaky as hell.....

 

 

They STILL have ultra soft power delivery.

[jmd426]

No

 

I actually have found the dealers to be pricks. (4) separage dealers.

 

No returned phone calls, emails or texts.

 

Pretty dissapointing.

Wow sorry to hear, that's pretty bad! 

[ckny]

The 16 has a snappier midrange but is still quite smooth. The 390 feels the smoothest by far.

It really does not have that abrupt off idle feeling you get with so many FI bikes. We had a 15 and 16 430 out yesterday.

[jmd426]

You are talking about TPS and mapping, not power. 

 

Yes i most certainty am and it all relates to how the engine feels. (How the power is put to the ground)

[jmd426]

The 16 has a snappier midrange but is still quite smooth. The 390 feels the smoothest by far.

It really does not have that abrupt off idle feeling you get with so many FI bikes. We had a 15 and 16 430 out yesterday.

Good to hear that what i was hoping. Thanks!

[jmd426]

You are talking about TPS and mapping, not power. 

 

My 450, 500, and 350 all had that problem.

 

Just another little 'secret' the magazines don't reveal about KTM's not quite 'finished' designs.

 

You can fix that on a KTM in about 45 seconds with a TPS adjustment and a map change.

On the '13's and later, you can acutally get the power delivery competely linear off idle with a map change.....too bad they are still peaky as hell.....

 

 

They STILL have ultra soft power delivery.

The magazines are always entertaining to me. Lol i trust them about as much as used car salesman.

 

I rode a ktm 500 about 3 mouths ago. If it was free or dam cheap id own one but other than that its no dice.  To me they still handle strange and the engine, Well you know

Id like to get a ride on the new sherco 450 but that will never happen unless i fly to tennessee.  Wr450 would be in the running as its the bench mark and face of reliability  IMO, but getting it plated in IA will never happen so that leaves beta and thankfully there proving to be a dam good bike.

Edited November 2, 2015 by jmd426

[basalt]

 

On the '13's and later, you can acutally get the power delivery competely linear off idle with a map change.....too bad they are still peaky as hell.....

 

 

They STILL have ultra soft power delivery.

 

Can you help me understand what you mean by peaky? To me linear and peaky don't go together (though I do see you said "off idle"). Just trying to understand since my FE550 has a magically powerful yet linear motor. Tons of power down low (but totally controlled with the wrist) and it just keeps pulling until it signs off and its time to grab another gear. The only hit or surge is the one you ask for with the clutch or the wrist.

 

Thanks!

[FORMA MOTO]

Can you help me understand what you mean by peaky? To me linear and peaky don't go together (though I do see you said "off idle"). Just trying to understand since my FE550 has a magically powerful yet linear motor. Tons of power down low (but totally controlled with the wrist) and it just keeps pulling until it signs off and its time to grab another gear. The only hit or surge is the one you ask for with the clutch or the wrist.

 

Thanks!

 

The KTM motor does not make any off-idle torque that continues through the rpm band

You get a little 'ghost' torque right off idle, then it goes flat, then rises again at peak rpm....way up there.

 

So, if you want to lift the front wheel or spin the rear wheel, you must use the clutch and get the rpms up there.....or, take a full handful of throttle, and hope you did it right.

 

Conversely, a WR450F has torque from idle, and it continues to build then falls off, as the hp nears peak

 

Just look at any KTM 350 dyno curve

[FORMA MOTO]

Here is a WR450F dyno curve (ignore all the optional tuning curves)

 

Notice how the power starts at the bottom rpms, and stays relatively flat until you are out of the hp range.

 

 

 

Now look at the KTM  graph.

Yes, the peak number are higher....but they are so high up in the rpm, you must stay up there to use them.

Plus, the torque is a "peak". Very hard to find it, and keep it there. It makes  basic wheel lifting and turning with the rear wheel nearly impossible unless you are at max rpms....which is a LOT of work to control.

 

 

 

The BETA graph is somewhere in the middle.

Edited November 2, 2015 by KRANNIE

[basalt]

Thanks!

[Piney Woods]

No

 

I actually have found the dealers to be pricks. (4) separage dealers.

 

No returned phone calls, emails or texts.

 

Pretty dissapointing.

Same experience here. Of the dealers I contacted I had one perform as a professional. And now I am unsure if he is still a Beta dealer.

[motoxgiant]

Same experience here. Of the dealers I contacted I had one perform as a professional. And now I am unsure if he is still a Beta dealer.

We're selling more Betas than ever, and the offer still stands - a printed and bound manual for you when you buy the bike.

[Piney Woods]

We're selling more Betas than ever, and the offer still stands - a printed and bound manual for you when you buy the bike.

And I appreciate that. ?

[MartyMOOSE]

We're selling more Betas than ever, and the offer still stands - a printed and bound manual for you when you buy the bike.

When you say manual is that the owners manual on CD printed or a separate workshop manual like a Japanese bike ?

 

Marty 

[Marco the Pool Boy]

These are 3 great examples of 3 different designs in off-road motors.

And in actuality the 450 (according to Beta) was not their best design. As it morphed into the 430 for better traction throughout the RPM range.

I'd LOVE to see a dyno graph of the new 430!!

Here is a WR450F dyno curve (ignore all the optional tuning curves)

 

Notice how the power starts at the bottom rpms, and stays relatively flat until you are out of the hp range.

 

 

 

Now look at the KTM  graph.

Yes, the peak number are higher....but they are so high up in the rpm, you must stay up there to use them.

Plus, the torque is a "peak". Very hard to find it, and keep it there. It makes  basic wheel lifting and turning with the rear wheel nearly impossible unless you are at max rpms....which is a LOT of work to control.

 

 

 

The BETA graph is somewhere in the middle.