Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  

If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all...

Recommended Posts

So I after 1140 miles I blew the motor on my project bike.  I'm pretty burned about the whole thing, and I think its mostly my fault (hangs head in shame).  I seem to have the worst luck keeping a bike running.  No matter how careful I am or what I do I seem to be a chocolate mess when it comes to the art of motorcycle maintenance.  I mean up until recently I have always done my own maintenance on my cars.  Even performed a successful Chevy transplant on my 1970 Toyota land cruiser back in the 80s without help from the internet etc.

Anyway it made enough of a mess when it blew that I figured I would get another motor.  I found a 1996 xrl cheap with 16700 miles on the odo.  It ran well but it's smoking on startup and with that many miles I figure I would go for a rebuild/refresh on the motor.  Do the transmission mods, upgrade the compression a bit etc.  I have been a bit torn on whether I should do this work myself or have one of the gurus out here (hint hint I could really use some help) or other do the work.  I'm really wanting to learn more about motors and bikes in general with this project and I have.  

Now for the next bit of trouble.  I start breaking down the new motor and two bolts from the valve cover break off.  Now there are two broken bolts stuck in the cylinder head.  Ok I can deal with that... I think. Some careful drilling and a tap maybe...  The cylinder head comes off with no problem.  On to the cylinder removal.  The two left side bolt break loose, not easily but they do start backing out.   On to the right side bolts.  The biggest issue with these bolts is you can't use a 1/2" drive socket.  You have to use 3/8" drive.  Well my 3/8" drive set is really cheap.  I never realized how cheap until I got into these cylinder head bolts.   On the original motor, when I went in to see how bad it was, I was able to loosen these bolts with a 1/4" drive breaker bar and a cheater pipe.  This time I broke that 1/4" ratchet (wrong tool for the job. I couldn't find the breaker bar),  2ea 3/8" extensions and the 3/8" breaker bar.   I even heated up the case where the threads are to see if that would help before I broke the second extension.  I'm using an extractor socket, which is twice the thickness of a standard socket and seems to grip the bolt head better too, but will most likely cause me to get new bolts.

Anyone have ideas on how to get these things loose.  They have brought me to a screeching halt on this project.  The next step is to go see if I can find better quality tools and use lots of anti seize when I put it back together... if I can get it apart.

Thanks for the help and suggestions

Mark

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

geeeeeezzzusssssss     man......go get some quality tools or you`ll pull all your hair out...

 

I`ve found the only thing that would remove those bolts is a Snap-On 6 point 3/8 drive socket because it`s

 

really tight and extension and 1/2 inch Snap-ON ractchet........they are not alot of fun to get out,,and cheap arsed tools

 

are not alot of help...

 

1/4 drive to put the side covers on maybe........but not for cylinder bolts..

 

But now that you used a bolt extractor you may be screwed trying to use a proper 6 point,,you might have to go down and actually drill the heads off those bolts to get the cylinder off...

 

B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to hear about your motor.  

 

Along with getting a quality tools, as Brian mentioned above, I'd add that vibration helps.  The dissimilar metal corrosion can be tough.  Heat can help as well.  

 

I will smack the back of my breaker bar sometimes or sometimes use a manual impact driver (not an impact wrench) to get the bolts broken moving.  

 

Also, when the bolt breaks loose don't just turn turn them out in one continuous rotation.  Work them in both directions to break up the corrosion/debris so that the threads don't gall and get damaged on the way out.  Use penetrating oil to try get some lubricant in there as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies guys.  I agree good tools will really help.  I'm a bit embarrassed about the situation I got myself into, but I have to move forward.

I'm out on the Snap on site now.  Do I need to find and get impact wrench quality tools for this.  I found this adapter so I can use my current 1/2" drive stuff(40 yr. old craftsman stuff), at least much better than the 3/8" crap I have now(unknown Chinese stuff).   How about these for sockets? I figure I would get 10mm -18mm.  I was thinking this impact driver would be good too, but it looks like a 1/4" drive.  And a couple of replacement 3/8" extensions.  I like the 3/8" tools for my carry tools they are a bit lighter than the 1/2" tools.

That's good advise on working the bolt out. Kind of how you use a tap. I thought about penetrating oil too but I don't think its possible to get it to the threads?

Thanks guys time to spend money on some tools.

 

 

Mark

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get 6 point chrome shallow sockets,,non-impact to start your tool collection...impact sockets are not as tight fitting...

 

You don`t have to get Snap-on sockets.....but i can tell you after 25+ years as a tech,,,,,a Snap-On 6 point will take bolts out that other cheaper brands have already rounded the corners off...

 

one good set of sockets in a drawer of junk is a life saver..

 

My suggestion...1 set of Snap-On six points in 3/8 drive..from 8-19mm in shallow...

 

https://store.snapon.com/Shallow-mm-chrome-Set-Socket-Metric-Shallow-6-Point-12-pcs-8-to-19-mm--P630558.aspx

 

 

you bcan pick them up used on ebay cheaper too....

 

At least you`ll have a set of good sockets,,,everything else can be cheaper stuff..

 

Older Craftsman stuff was decent..........but Snap-On always made the best sockets..

 

 

B

Edited by brianhare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Snap-on can't be beat.  Their Blue Point stuff seems good as well, I'm not really sure what the difference is.  I use everything though, including lots of Craftsman stuff.  

 

I buy used stuff from Craigslist, pawn shops, and flea markets.  I've bought buckets of tools for $5 or $10 at flea markets just because there were a few high quality sockets or wrenches mixed in there that I knew the value of.  I've gotten some great deals.  I usually buy new only when I'm in a hurry or if it is something very odd.

 

I've had Mac 3/8" impact driver for years that has served me well.  That Snap-on impact driver you show is a great one I'm sure, I think it is a 3/8". 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get 6 point chrome shallow sockets,,non-impact to start your tool collection...impact sockets are not as tight fitting...

 

You don`t have to get Snap-on sockets.....but i can tell you after 25+ years as a tech,,,,,a Snap-On 6 point will take bolts out that other cheaper brands have already rounded the corners off...

 

one good set of sockets in a drawer of junk is a life saver..

 

My suggestion...1 set of Snap-On six points in 3/8 drive..from 8-19mm in shallow...

 

https://store.snapon.com/Shallow-mm-chrome-Set-Socket-Metric-Shallow-6-Point-12-pcs-8-to-19-mm--P630558.aspx

 

 

you bcan pick them up used on ebay cheaper too....

 

At least you`ll have a set of good sockets,,,everything else can be cheaper stuff..

 

Older Craftsman stuff was decent..........but Snap-On always made the best sockets..

 

 

B

Thanks brianhare, those sockets did the trick!!.   They made all the difference getting those bolts loose.  I picked up the sockets, 6"extension, and 1/2" to 3/8" adapter on ebay.  I had to buy the 3" extension from Snap on.  Not cheap by any means but well worth the cost.  I also heated the area with a torch to help out.   The hardest part is hanging on to all of it while trying to apply leverage to the wrench.  I use my belly and a long screw drivers stuffed into the rear mounting hole for the motor as a 3rd hand to keep the motor from spinning on the table.

 

Now for the next stumper.  I was cleaning up the crankcases from the motor that I blew and ran into a part I have not been able to get ahold of to pull out for replacement.  How do you get the transmission main shaft needle bearing and retainer out of the left case (see picture).  

 

IMG_22951.JPGIMG_22931.JPG

 

The manual says that the parts (bearing and retainer) are bought and replaced as a unit.  There is also an oil passage that goes from there to a nozzle that looks like it sprays the transmission gears that I can't clean out completely unless I pull that retainer.

 

Any thoughts thanks for the help.

 

Mark

Edited by Hafty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They probably make a puller for it but I ran a TIG weld bead around it ID of it.  It can be about any kind of weld (any weld bead, when cooled, will shrink the diameter) but I'd hate to think of doing with with anything other than TIG because of the spatter and lack of control with other processes.

 

I wanted to pull that oiling nozzle as well but was afraid to damage it and I'm not sure it is available.  I was able to clean mine with solvent and air to be sure it was open. 

Edited by hollerhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Snap-on can't be beat.  Their Blue Point stuff seems good as well, I'm not really sure what the difference is.  I use everything though, including lots of Craftsman stuff.  

 

I buy used stuff from Craigslist, pawn shops, and flea markets.  I've bought buckets of tools for $5 or $10 at flea markets just because there were a few high quality sockets or wrenches mixed in there that I knew the value of.  I've gotten some great deals.  I usually buy new only when I'm in a hurry or if it is something very odd.

 

I've had Mac 3/8" impact driver for years that has served me well.  That Snap-on impact driver you show is a great one I'm sure, I think it is a 3/8". 

 

 

I have a MAC TOOLS impact driver with bits,,,,,the better version they sell,it is better than the SNAP-ON in my book,,i can`t kill it...

 

B

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So is welding the only way to remove the retainer?  Would heat help?  even with that there is not much hang onto or get ahold on it.  So far I have not found much in the manual other than telling me the parts are bought and replaced a unit.

 

 

Thanks for the help

 

Mark

Edited by Hafty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually just remove everything from the cover.....place it on a cookie pan inverted and heat it to 300 degrees in the oven,,it`ll fall out onto the cookie pan...

 

B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and don`t forget to clean stuff and soap&water wash it, before using the domestic oven other wise you know what`s gonna happen, or at least make sure the other half ain`t around for a while.!!!!!!! Right! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and don`t forget to clean stuff and soap&water wash it, before using the domestic oven other wise you know what`s gonna happen, or at least make sure the other half ain`t around for a while.!!!!!!! Right!

I have cleaned this thing until you can eat out of it... If you had to. I would still get grief about it if she was home when I cook it. So ya I have it all planned out.

Thanks again for the tips on removing this part. Kind of thought heat might be the answer. Was not sure how to apply it

Mark

Edited by Hafty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As in Brianhare`s reply, get hold of good leather gardening gloves, a good block o wood so you can hold the case and bang it down on the block, use the oven to heat the case for at least 15/20 mins, to 300degrees and then spit on it to test for temp,if spit sizzles and disappears immediately the temp`s right.

Whip out case and bang down sharply on block o wood the bearing should with luck drop out. I also use a large nozzle propane torch, again using spit to tell me when it`s ready, using the oven is the safest way to go about this job but if you are unable to get it out, then go and see a bike mechanic you can trust to do it for you and ask if you can watch him do it, and learn something. Good luck with the rebuild!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well...  I'm working up a list of parts for this rebuild.  BTW I bough an older bike for parts and the motor so I am rebuilding a motor that was not blown up,  but has 16700 miles on it and is burning oil when cold.

 

I'm running into a couple of things while searching for parts.  Mostly parts that have 2 part numbers listed like the gear shift reset spring that, as I have read here, has an upgrade.  which one to order?   There several other parts thast fall into this problem as well.

 

Does anyone have a base list of parts that you would replace.  Here are some parts that I have listed so far, but I think I may be going too far with some of them.   I know there are some that have to be determined based on what is found after the tear down but a starter list would be great.   I'm still wondering about valves, cam shaft, cam chain, tensioners etc.

 

 

Thanks for all of the help so far

 

Mark

parts list 1.JPG

parts list 2.JPG

Edited by Hafty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...I'm running into a couple of things while searching for parts.  Mostly parts that have 2 part numbers listed like the gear shift reset spring that, as I have read here, has an upgrade.  which one to order?   There several other parts thast fall into this problem as well...

You want the "MT3" spring.  It is the new design.  It is the blue one in the pictures below.

 

For what its worth I recommend using Service Honda's parts fiche as they make the changed part numbers much easier to understand with a notification and explanation attached to the part number.  They're about the cheapest around too.  I have yet to order a part that hasn't shown up in a few days without issue.

 

I did all the bearings, races, and seals without even checking the old ones.  It is just good practice and makes for good peace of mind.  

 

I lapped the stock valves and re-used the stock valve springs (mine measured fine) and the valves seated very well.  

 

My cam was good but I should have done a new chain and didn't.  With the mileage you mentioned I'd use a new cam chain as you will be a degree or two off (as I am now).  All my cam chain guides were in good shape so I reused them.  

 

Get good gaskets (I'd just go ahead and get Honda A and B kits listed in the parts fiche to make it easy).  As I was told by a very experienced engine builder on here, mcma111, do not use an aftermarket valve cover gasket.  I thought I'd done my homework well enough but the stock metal shim/gasket is a must there.  With an aftermarket gasket you risk binding on the center cam journal.  I checked my clearances with the aftermarket gasket I intended to use and it was too tight when torqued.  Read his thread over here.  It is pretty comprehensive.

 

I also did a new countershaft as my original was badly worn.  I used a 600R shaft just in case I decide to do the kickstart addition later on.  I used a split type shaft collar to plug the oil hole in the end of the 600R countershaft so that I wouldn't lose oil to my transmission gears without the kickstart idler gear installed.  You can also just install the gear without the rest of the kickstart parts but you'll need to fabricate the gear retainer stud for the outer cover.

 

Also, be prepared to drill and repair the bolt threads in the head for the valve cover retaining bolts.  Many of mine wouldn't torque to spec and required a quick heli-coil insert to get them correct.  I probably did 6 or 7 out of 11 to get them all to torque.  Don't take shortcuts here as it will leak.

 

I have lots of pictures of the engine torn apart and going back together in my Garage on here just for reference along the way.

20150308_164009.jpg

20150308_164113.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Picture day and question day too.   Here are few shots of my blown up motor.  It is by far the worst one I have found yet. YA ME!!!!  I WIN!!  :banghead:  :facepalm:  :bonk:     I'am using it as a learning tool before I dig into the other motor to rebuild it.   t has been a big help in figuring out what parts to buy for the next motor.    I may even build tis one out if it worth the effort.

 

The piston

EFEBECB7-D15C-4152-986D-361FFF0E620A_zps

AC8D104B-9BFA-486F-8B4E-104AA64A49A4_zps

 

 

The wrist pin is stuck in the connecting rod

1ECEED72-72FF-408B-9912-9AFC038342E7_zps

 

 

The head with bits of the piston

BC59274E-24B8-403D-A0A6-3FC72CA09DD9_zps

 

Can this head be fixed or better yet is it worth the effort.  The center jornal for the cam is mushroomed out on the sides a bit.  The valve seats have metal stuck/melted to them.   I have been able to pop a few of the bits loose.  The valve guides look ok.  Are they something that is standard to replace at this point?

F400F423-BBB2-425E-8BA9-E11B6955E240_zps

E5D1E1A7-7B2A-4718-AE85-013FB03CA1CF_zps

D346F2AA-09BF-46B9-ACA6-F59F15154E13_zps

ADB96990-95D2-40E5-A133-598EB2F48C2E_zps

539E8791-EF62-4EEC-AC85-20D6D6AB1A6B_zps

 

The cylinder before and after a hone.  There is a nick that I can feel where the dark spot is.   I Think it will need to be bored out a bit to fix that.  I also don't have the measuring tools to determine if it is round or not and out of round would also require a rebore

FDB62BB2-D9BD-4494-B39A-267EEDAA01E5_zps

BB302B1A-3ED3-4487-82BD-33C01EAA9294_zps

 

 

New vales will be required. 

E74EC279-102C-4F6D-8364-8ABCEC3F439A_zps

6EFE98D7-21B5-4CD8-8119-EB7D296F52F4_zps

 

 

Yeehaa

 

Mark

Edited by Hafty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bump

Anybody able to answer my ?? I'm really curious if this head is worth the effort/$$$ to fix

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The head is repairable....Engine Dynamics can weld up the center cam journal and make it like new.......but,,,,,,,,,,the question for you is..can you get a used head on ebay that is good ...then you will not need new valves or the journal repaired,,just grind the valves and go...

 

I`m thinking a used head would be the better choice.....

 

B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't following this thread before, but after looking at those photos, I have to say "Nice job of blowing up that motor!" :thumbsup:  :lol:

 

The little chunk out of the side of my piston when I blew up mine looks very tame by comparison.  And only the piston and rod were really wrecked in that motor.  I gave up on fixing it myself and had Steve in San Francisco do the work.  The engine is excellent now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Reply with:

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...