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Compact cheap oil pumps for turbo?

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Hello,

Do you know of any good and preferably cheap electric oil pumps?

I want a small oil pump for my turbo build. I am planning to have a separate reservoir for the turbo oil. I need a pump that runs on 12 volts and is compact. Thanks

 

EDIT:

Someone told me that turbos circulate their oil and no need for a pump.

Edited by Q47

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Whoever said they circulate their oil is to not be trusted on any motor related topic .... Ever ...

That is the equivalent in badness as telling someone you can run a two stroke on unmixed gas , perhaps they just didnt know and just wanted to say something but you simply can't trust people that just say stuff when they don't really know

If you search online you will be able to find some pumps about the size of a large potato, they're also about 2-4 hundred bucks simply due to the fact that they are pretty much guaranteed to works his is considering if you loose oil pressure the turbo eats itself faster than a Subaru with a broken timing belt .

Here's a link to a site specializing in them they'll have all the answers you need

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

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Whoever said they circulate their oil is to not be trusted on any motor related topic .... Ever ...

That is the equivalent in badness as telling someone you can run a two stroke on unmixed gas , perhaps they just didnt know and just wanted to say something but you simply can't trust people that just say stuff when they don't really know

If you search online you will be able to find some pumps about the size of a large potato, they're also about 2-4 hundred bucks simply due to the fact that they are pretty much guaranteed to works his is considering if you loose oil pressure the turbo eats itself faster than a Subaru with a broken timing belt .

Here's a link to a site specializing in them they'll have all the answers you need

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

LOL someone actually told me before that you don't need to premix oil after break in. Why can't people just say 'I don't know'. I respect honest people more than a know it all that knows nothing.

It's pretty .. pricey. I bet you get what you pay for.

I found this one 

http://www.ecotrons.com/pictures/detail-picture-of-oil-pump/

Do you recon it will do it's job?

Thanks,

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I couldn't tell you depends what sort of pressure and flow date you're going for , id check out the site I linked as I believe they have info on that. It's very important that the flow rate is properly rated as when the oilheats up flow goes up too as the viscosity is lower so while that pump may be able to hold 30 psi with 10w-40 at 40-135 Fahrenheit after that viscosity is too low for it to keep up

Btw you will need a regulator to manage the oil pressure at 30-50 psi

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I couldn't tell you depends what sort of pressure and flow date you're going for , id check out the site I linked as I believe they have info on that. It's very important that the flow rate is properly rated as when the oilheats up flow goes up too as the viscosity is lower so while that pump may be able to hold 30 psi with 10w-40 at 40-135 Fahrenheit after that viscosity is too low for it to keep up

Btw you will need a regulator to manage the oil pressure at 30-50 psi

 It's a RHB31 turbo, the website seems to advertise this pump for that turbo, price isn't bad, will give it a shot. Probably will leave it running by itself on a 12v power supply for couple of days to see if it does anything weird.

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It's a RHB31 turbo, the website seems to advertise this pump for that turbo, price isn't bad, will give it a shot. Probably will leave it running by itself on a 12v power supply for couple of days to see if it does anything weird.

I wouldn't let it run unless it's pumping oil , it's designed for certain operating conditions and letting it run without oil or pumping cold very viscous oil could be harmful for it

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I wouldn't let it run unless it's pumping oil , it's designed for certain operating conditions and letting it run without oil or pumping cold very viscous oil could be harmful for it

Of course pumping oil in pan hahaha

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I'd let it pump like a 0w-20 so that it doesn't get too stressed since the oil is going to be a room temp during your stress test

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What about drilling and tapping the oil pump that's there? Is there a line to the head?

I was interested in turboing my klx for a while I was just going to use the line that goes to the head and use it for the turbo aswell

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It's true: A turbocharger main shaft runs on plain bearings because of the simple fact that it can run up to or beyond 120,000 RPM, and rolling element bearings normally cannot turn that fast.

 

Now imagine that happening without a continuous oil feed... :eek:

 

Also true is the fact that some people pull answers out of their ass in order to maintain an image of knowledgeability in the eyes of their audience.  The answer this particular sage provided would have made me back away slowly to a safe distance, just in case whatever it was was contagious.

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I'd let it pump like a 0w-20 so that it doesn't get too stressed since the oil is going to be a room temp during your stress test

I want it to pump regular room temperature oil so it's thicker to simulate having a load. Since in normal operation it will be pumping the oil through other components. I just want to know if it won't break or act weird. The number of times I bought stuff and they broke 5 in minutes or even arrived broke made me question everything I buy. I guess that happens when you try to save $

 

What about drilling and tapping the oil pump that's there? Is there a line to the head?

I was interested in turboing my klx for a while I was just going to use the line that goes to the head and use it for the turbo aswell

 

The thing is I don't want to complicate things for myself. I don't know the exact effects of stealing oil. I also don't know how the heat of the turbo will degrade the oil prematurely. Changing the oil every run is a chore. With a separate reservoir I would be able to monitor the oil temperature and  state much easier. Also oil changes would be easier. I also like the idea of being able to run a different oil for the turbo because synthetic oils work better for turbos as far as I know. I can also easily monitor the oil level in case it leaks or something.

 

It's true: A turbocharger main shaft runs on plain bearings because of the simple fact that it can run up to or beyond 120,000 RPM, and rolling element bearings normally cannot turn that fast.

 

Now imagine that happening without a continuous oil feed... :eek:

 

Also true is the fact that some people pull answers out of their ass in order to maintain an image of knowledgeability in the eyes of their audience.  The answer this particular sage provided would have made me back away slowly to a safe distance, just in case whatever it was was contagious.

 

That's true some people amaze me. I posted that here just to allow you guys to laugh at what some people say. Never trust someone on the interwebs. 

 

 

Existing system oil volume and pressure might or might not be adequate, and no one has said whether the subject engine is even a 4-stroke, but it's a valid thought. 

 

It's an air cooled CRF230 supermoto 250cc 4 stroke. I took it to the dyno 27+ hp. I am still not pleased with that so I got my self a RHB31 turbo and I am trying to fit it in. I will disappear if it failed but I will post the pictures if it did work. Don't ask me why I chose it I just want to push it to the limits. Think of me like the people who put nitrous on honda rukus.

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You shouldn't run an external pump - it's extra, unneeded weight. Pull your oil from the pressure feed from the filter and it will work fine. If you mount the turbo above the oil level for the sump, you will not need a scavenge pump and can let the turbo drain directly back to your sump. If you mount below, you must use a scavenge or the oil will escape past the seal rings and burn in the exhaust. I use the RB pump for scavenge and it works well.

 

The RHB31 runs the same center housing as the RHB32, which I have an oil map for. PM me if you want it. You need an oil map to calculate the correct required flow rate through the turbo, but, in order to use it, you must get the inlet pressure of your oiling system. The 30-50 PSI that Swes mentioned is completely wrong. It's all about the flow rate of oil.

 

You won't be changing oil every run, but it will degrade more quickly and will require replacement more frequently.

 

 

With a turbocharger your heat rejection increases relative to stock. Even though cooling fins are sized for a worst case scenario, I speculate that you will have issues with overheating at some point.

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One possible benefit of running a dedicated oiling system separate from the crankcase oil is that the oil will last longer because its not exposed to blow by gasses,(heat will still be an issue, but a cooler can be added easily) and you can locate the turbo where ever you want. With a shared oiling system the turbo needs to drain back to the crankcase, usually by gravity, so it needs to be mounted relitvly high, and relitvly close to the engine. (Close to the engine isn't a bad thing, hot exhaust gasses have more energy, but its not the only way to make it work)

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If you make a decision based on cost, do it as such.

 

Add the cost of the following:

Scavenge pump

Hoses

Cooler

Oil tank

 

then divide that cost by the cost of an oil change. Factor in that an oil change interval for a turbo will be around 40% of normal and also how long you plan on owning the bike.

 

 

On a 27 hp bike, you'll notice the weight. Figure that, with forced induction, your volumetric efficiency is somewhat proportional to your inlet pressure (assuming flow is not becoming choked and you have a cam profile that minimizes overlap). It looks like the RHB31 is good for a realistic MAP of 1.8 bar, which should put you in approximately the range of (ideally) 45 horsepower before you factor in the charge temperature increase that comes from compressing the intake charge.

 

Figure that the pump will weigh 8 lbs for the RB Racing pump or 10 for any other, the oil tank (2lb if designed correctly), the oil to fill it (5 lb), and oil cooler (5lb) and you've just added an additional 20 lbs of unnecessary weight because you're worried about oil changes

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Whoever said they circulate their oil is to not be trusted on any motor related topic .... Ever ...

That is the equivalent in badness as telling someone you can run a two stroke on unmixed gas , perhaps they just didnt know and just wanted to say something but you simply can't trust people that just say stuff when they don't really know

If you search online you will be able to find some pumps about the size of a large potato, they're also about 2-4 hundred bucks simply due to the fact that they are pretty much guaranteed to works his is considering if you loose oil pressure the turbo eats itself faster than a Subaru with a broken timing belt .

Here's a link to a site specializing in them they'll have all the answers you need

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

 

 

What about drilling and tapping the oil pump that's there? Is there a line to the head?

I was interested in turboing my klx for a while I was just going to use the line that goes to the head and use it for the turbo aswell

 

 

It's true: A turbocharger main shaft runs on plain bearings because of the simple fact that it can run up to or beyond 120,000 RPM, and rolling element bearings normally cannot turn that fast.

 

Now imagine that happening without a continuous oil feed... :eek:

 

Also true is the fact that some people pull answers out of their ass in order to maintain an image of knowledgeability in the eyes of their audience.  The answer this particular sage provided would have made me back away slowly to a safe distance, just in case whatever it was was contagious.

 

 

Existing system oil volume and pressure might or might not be adequate, and no one has said whether the subject engine is even a 4-stroke, but it's a valid thought. 

 

 

You shouldn't run an external pump - it's extra, unneeded weight. Pull your oil from the pressure feed from the filter and it will work fine. If you mount the turbo above the oil level for the sump, you will not need a scavenge pump and can let the turbo drain directly back to your sump. If you mount below, you must use a scavenge or the oil will escape past the seal rings and burn in the exhaust. I use the RB pump for scavenge and it works well.

 

The RHB31 runs the same center housing as the RHB32, which I have an oil map for. PM me if you want it. You need an oil map to calculate the correct required flow rate through the turbo, but, in order to use it, you must get the inlet pressure of your oiling system. The 30-50 PSI that Swes mentioned is completely wrong. It's all about the flow rate of oil.

 

You won't be changing oil every run, but it will degrade more quickly and will require replacement more frequently.

 

 

With a turbocharger your heat rejection increases relative to stock. Even though cooling fins are sized for a worst case scenario, I speculate that you will have issues with overheating at some point.

 

 

One possible benefit of running a dedicated oiling system separate from the crankcase oil is that the oil will last longer because its not exposed to blow by gasses,(heat will still be an issue, but a cooler can be added easily) and you can locate the turbo where ever you want. With a shared oiling system the turbo needs to drain back to the crankcase, usually by gravity, so it needs to be mounted relitvly high, and relitvly close to the engine. (Close to the engine isn't a bad thing, hot exhaust gasses have more energy, but its not the only way to make it work)

 

 

If you make a decision based on cost, do it as such.

 

Add the cost of the following:

Scavenge pump

Hoses

Cooler

Oil tank

 

then divide that cost by the cost of an oil change. Factor in that an oil change interval for a turbo will be around 40% of normal and also how long you plan on owning the bike.

 

 

On a 27 hp bike, you'll notice the weight. Figure that, with forced induction, your volumetric efficiency is somewhat proportional to your inlet pressure (assuming flow is not becoming choked and you have a cam profile that minimizes overlap). It looks like the RHB31 is good for a realistic MAP of 1.8 bar, which should put you in approximately the range of (ideally) 45 horsepower before you factor in the charge temperature increase that comes from compressing the intake charge.

 

Figure that the pump will weigh 8 lbs for the RB Racing pump or 10 for any other, the oil tank (2lb if designed correctly), the oil to fill it (5 lb), and oil cooler (5lb) and you've just added an additional 20 lbs of unnecessary weight because you're worried about oil changes

 

 

So many great comments, so much to learn from you all. Please add me to skype if you are interested in how the project is going. I would love to get everyone who is interested even if they have nothing much to share. @anthony47471

Thanks!

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You shouldn't run an external pump - it's extra, unneeded weight. Pull your oil from the pressure feed from the filter and it will work fine. If you mount the turbo above the oil level for the sump, you will not need a scavenge pump and can let the turbo drain directly back to your sump. If you mount below, you must use a scavenge or the oil will escape past the seal rings and burn in the exhaust. I use the RB pump for scavenge and it works well.

 

The RHB31 runs the same center housing as the RHB32, which I have an oil map for. PM me if you want it. You need an oil map to calculate the correct required flow rate through the turbo, but, in order to use it, you must get the inlet pressure of your oiling system. The 30-50 PSI that Swes mentioned is completely wrong. It's all about the flow rate of oil.

 

You won't be changing oil every run, but it will degrade more quickly and will require replacement more frequently.

 

 

With a turbocharger your heat rejection increases relative to stock. Even though cooling fins are sized for a worst case scenario, I speculate that you will have issues with overheating at some point.

Being that the viscosity of the oil changes by two orders of magnitude from 10-100C trying to control the flow rate is almost impossible if you go on any manufactures website the spec is oil pressure with a minimum flow rate. This means supply X pressure dot not exceed y pressure and at idle have at least z pressure  while being capable of at least k  GPM. Flow rate is proportional to pressure and viscosity. Being that all oil pumps worth talking about are positive displacement their flow is proportional to the speed but the pressure is simply whatever the relief valve is set to and the restriction of the passages and since I know my fj1200 has a cold oil pressure >60 at idle and a hot oil pressure of 15-20 at idle I know for sure at a given flow rate cold versus hot its a massive pressure difference if that relief valve wasn't there.

 

Im not sure why youre saying its all about the flow rate when you can't control that without some pressure valve mechanism or computer electronics. Besides taping into the oil feed on a small single cylinder aircooled dirt bike for a turbo seems risky to me idle oil pressure is going to tank, oil temps are going to be super high.... 

 

This is a non watercooled turbo as well so its going to be especially tough on oil.

 

" Garrett distributors can tell you the recommended range of acceptable oil pressures for your particular turbo. Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines." 

 

-Garret Website

Edited by Swes

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Sees has a point, you know. Even though it is accurate to state that lubricated assemblies do benefit from adequate flow more than adequate pressure, the ability to maintain a certain level of pressure at the oil feed inlet of any device guarantees flow at the levels designed for the device, engine, turbo, or otherwise.

For example, if you were to tap into the engine's oiling system, which normally maintains X pressure, and subsequently find it will only maintain 2/3 X, that indicates that the pump is not capable of delivering enough volume to maintain operating pressure with the new "leak" added. If it can maintain the pressure, it has all the volume you are going to need.

The amount of flow the pump is capable of is important, but it's not important beyond the initial selection of the pump. Actual flow through the system is a function of oil weight and temperature, and the number of points in the system where oil escapes from the pressure fed supply back into the sump volume.

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little flow chart for the system, CV carb is connected to the turbo, The butterfly is removed. Another butterfly is installed at the intake manifold.

Green thing is the oil pump, it sucks the oil through the turbo and the oil cooler and spitting it into the oil reservoir.  The reason for sucking is to reduce oil leak out of the compressor housing. As the turbo is 'sucking' air out of the CV carb it creates some sort of resistance that can make the oil leak out to the compressor. Removing the butterfly + sucking through oil instead of pushing it  both reduce the oil leaking into the compressor housing. 

The gray box at the button is the engine. Waiting for comments and feedback.

flowchart.png

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