Simple HID setup with stock stator

[w7412651]

So i have been doing tons of research on how to put a simple ddm tuning kit on my crf250x. I know all about the cheap china hid kits but im looking for you real technical people out there. I have a 2012 CRF250X and it is bone stock as the wiring goes. The only problem is the halogen headlight runs VERY dim and doesnt recharge the battery that fast. Max 30 starts. I'm thinking it is the regulator rectifier that is causing the problem. Ive heard that when regulator rectifiers malfunction, they either under volt or overvolt and supposedly "boil over" your battery. So, obvioulsy it is undervolting. Or it could possibly be the stator? If i were to replace the stock regulator rectifier im thinking i should go with the trail tech one because it is half the price of the oem and amazon says it fits. The only thing im worried about is if the power system can take "full wave rectifying." Now i'm a kid (14) and i know a lot of electrical things in the department but not this.

 

          So basically what im asking is can the bike take full wave rectifying and if so, could i run a 35w ddm tuning HID kit off it?

[harkon]

As far as I know, your 250 should have it's stator split into 2 unequal halves. One half for the charging cct which has the rectifier regulator on it. The other is AC and runs the lighting circuit. I don't have the electrical drawing on hand at the moment. There is no reason you cannot full wave rectify the feed to the headlight ... however. Most, if not all, HID ballasts want to run in a very narrow voltage range so you may discover your light working only in a specific RPM range. You will definitely want to add a RR or build your own to make this work.

If I remember I'll check the drawings and let you know for sure.

[Chuck.]

Interesting topic as I've considered upgrading the lighting on my plated X.  I thought LED would be the easiest because of low current draw but others have reported that the light is flat and diminishes depth perception. So HID would be preferred but as noted they are voltage sensitive so need DC and a battery.  I have HID on one car and the lighting is much better than Halogen bulbs on my other vehicles, but I found Sylvania Silverstar Ultra bulbs to be brighter than the HID car.

 

As said a split alternator system, two outputs; one for charging the battery and one for the head light.  (And a third for ignition.)

The X reg/rect does two functions; regulates the lighting AC  output for the headlight, and rectifies the charging output  for charging the battery. 

 

The yellow wire from the alternator is for battery charging and the blue wire is AC for the headlight, Both go to the Honda R/R, the blue also to the headlight.

As harkon said you may need to add another RR to reroute the AC from the Honda regulator to the new RR for charging the battery. And run the HID directly from the battery.

 

Ricky Stator may already have a proven solution.

[Jim Dettman]

The setup is a bit more complex than you think.    The "coil" is physically wound over multiple poles and it has one end connected to the regulator. The other is connected to ground.    A center tap runs to the rectifier, which is used to charge the battery. So everything is regulated and only a portion is rectified to DC.

 

To use the Trail Tech regulator/rectifier, you'd need to covert the stator to a floating ground.  You'd also need a new headlight setup because right now, it runs off A/C and one side of that circuit is connected to ground.

 

So quite a bit of fiddling needs to be done.   My advice is find someone who has done exactly what you want to do, worked out all the kinks, and then duplicate the setup or bite the bullet and buy a complete setup.  Stock stator outtput is only 70 watts anyway.

As far as what's going on now, what you need to do is:

1. Check the battery charge:

  Measure the voltage at the battery with the bike not running.   Note the voltage.   If under 12.4V, the battery is not charged.  If you can, get it fully charged off the bike and tested.  If after charging the battery is still below 12.4v, then the battery is bad (shorted cell).

2. Check for current leakage (a short).   Put an amp meter between the positive bat terminal and the positive cable.  You should have less then .1mA of flow.  If not, do 2b.

2b. Disconnect the regulator/rectifier.  If the leakage drop below .1 mA, then the regulator/rectifier is bad.   If it doesn't drop, then you have a short somewhere.

3. Check the stator (bike off):

The check on the stator is done at the black plug under the left radiator shroud.  Disconnect the plug and:

1. Between Yellow and body ground, you should have continuity
2. Between White and body ground, you should have continuity.

4. Check the charging voltage:

At 5,000 rpms, you should have more than the rest voltage, but less than 15 volts max.  Typically it will be in the range of 13.5 - 14 volts.  If it's in that range, than your battery is at fault and everything else is working fine.  If it's over, then the regulator /rectifier is bad.

5. Check the regulator/rectifier:

If you get battery resting voltage, then at the 4P connector of the regulator/rectifier, disconnect the plug (bike is off), and on the wiring harness side, you want to check:

1. Between Red/White and ground, you should have battery voltage.
2. Between Yellow and body ground, you should have continuity
3. Between White and body ground, you should have continuity.
4. Between Green and body ground, you should have continuity.

If that all checks out, then replace the regulator/rectifier.Jim

[bobsled]

Isn't there an 85 watt stator on the market somewhere? As chuck mentioned, it could be a rickystator, but I feel as though I recall it being some other manufacturer that I found previously (but it wasn't cheap, iirc)

I know that is a small increase, but every few watts count when your already losing power to a rectifier (thermal loss)

I'm Def following this thread....great topic

[harkon]

Good to know the AC is regulated. Assuming your stock system is fully functional, put a full bridge in the lighting circuit and add a linear regulator if needed. Does the HID need a full 35W. If so make sure whatever solution you put in there is good for at least 3A. I would gear up for a 5A solution and things should last pretty long. If you run into low RPM dropouts see about adding a really small 12V gel cell or LI battery to buffer the low voltage portions. You will also need an On/Off switch if you go this route unless you also tie in a relay to turn the system off when you kill the motor. It seriously may be better to just find a brighter Halogen bulb like a SiverStar or a PIAA part. It would save a lot of work.

[Chuck.]

Good idea but the problem is the X's headlight is the classic Stanley plastic lens with a H6M bulb socket.  The plastic doesn't have the heat tolerance of glass so limits incandescent wattage.  I installed a Ricky Stator Halogen 45/45watt H6M bulb in mine for more light, and the plastic is surviving. The other option is to convert to a lens that accept automotive bulbs and then you will have more options.

 

Some of the XRs use a number plate with a glass lens (slightly larger than the plastic lens) that accept single filament H3 bulbs, and dual filament bulbs are avail from UK.  The XL street versions, and other street Hondas, have number plates and glass lens that accept duel filament H4 bulbs.

 

The Sylvania Silverstar Ultra halogens comes in these bulb styles: 9003/H4, 9004, 9005, 9006, 9007, H7, H1, H11, H13/9008

 

Typical light output for Halogen is about 25 lumens/watt, HID is about 86 lumens/watt. So a 35 watt Halogen bulb produces about 875 lumens, 65 watt about 1600. And a 35 watt HID about 3000 lumens, but only a single beam.

 

Cree's XLamp XM-L LEDs sellers claim 100 lumens per watt at their full power of 10 watts, and up to 160 lumens/watt at around 2 watts input power. Other LEDs have about the same output per watt as HID, so there is a wide range of lumens per watt output among LEDs. LED tail/brake lights have built in regulators and I've successfully run them on AC.

 

A 3000lumen LED kit, might ask Cyclops if a H7 bulb can be fitted to a H3 or H4 lens.

http://www.cyclopsadventuresports.com/H7-3000-lumen-LED-Headlight-bulb_p_86.html

[w7412651]

So, for Chuck., are you saying an HID kit would melt the plastic lens? Because I have not seen a lot of people in Ocotillo Wells who have hid kits on theirs but when I talked to them their lens was fine and i mostly paid attention to how it ran on the stock stator but I could clearly see that the lens wasnt fried. So, I got this bike for Christmas ('15) and we are going back to the dealership (it was used) and they are offering to replace the stator and charging system all for free. So if all goes well, i still might want to change it to hid but also not to becuase my dads 450x is almost blinding with the stock bulb in it and also i dont do a lot of night riding anyway. Im also not going to buy a DC HID ballast because they dont run at full power but i did find a website that sells an AC kit all made for the 250x.

Web link:

http://www.hidkitsxenonlights.com/honda-crf250x/

[Chuck.]

Good question.

Couple of issue with using plastic lens.

Plastic is thermal so high heat will damage or melt it, don't know where that temp is for the Stanley lens.

Glass usually provides better optics.

And for offroad plastic is more break resistant.

 

Heat output is the wattage in, but as I found out a 45watt halogen was not a problem in the plastic lens on my X.

The other issue is the bulb socket, the Stanley plastic lens use the H6M socket, the glass lens use automotive sockets.

So to use HID in a common Stanley plastic lens you need to find one that fits the H6M socket, At one time there were some HID kits with H6M bulbs on ebay about $30 a pair, just never got that far in my lighting projects.

HID conversions for automotive lens are common, which is why I posted the info on glass lens for Hondas.

 

Like you I seldom ride at night but a bright headlight helps to avoid head ons. 

 

There are some  aftermarket number plate/headlight kits out there that accept H3 or H4 bulbs.

Don;t know what lens those using HID bulbs were using.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Chuck.

[w7412651]

Well with the web link I provided for you previously, Chuck., if you went to the socket option they do except H6M fitting and I have seen a lot of kits on Amazon. I prefer buying the kit from Amazon because you are able to return it much easier than having to deal with the seller on Ebay. The main problem is finding an AC ballast but the weblink I provided is an AC ballast. I am definitely not going to put it another rectifier and I am not putting in a 45w. Only 35w.

[Chuck.]

One big issue with HID lights is they will shut down if the voltage drops too low, which will happen if the power draw of the  light is more than the alternator can deliver at low engine speeds.  A battery provides back up power at low engine speeds but that means a DC ballast.

[harkon]

Indeed it does. None of this is impossible or even all that difficult. Is it all worth it though?

[Chuck.]

Good question, I've ask myself the same on lighting projects and I've yet to spring for LED or HID.

Long time ago I converted a XR to street legal without a battery and that required way too much stuff. And I plated my X.

I do know that all you need to get out of the woods at night is a 35 watt headlight, but it will be at a slower speed than during daylight.

[w7412651]

Ok so if I use a DC ballst and bulb, I still want to go with the DDM Tuning kit for about $50 total. I want the kit to run off the stator and then off the battery at idle. So how would I do that so that it doesn't drain the battery? Also, can I turn up the idle on the carb so the bike will produce 12v always? What voltage does the average AC/DC HID ballast require to run the bulb?

 

Alright, here is a CRF250X hid kit specifically made for the bike and can run off ac which comes from the stator. If you click the picture of the ballast you can see the specifications. The volts input is 9-16v AC and the specification below that says V norm. This means the normal running voltage is 13.5v but it can still run at 9v. This is the best kit i've seen.

LINK: http://www.hidkitsxenonlights.com/honda-crf250x/#

Edited January 22, 2016 by w7412651

[w7412651]

DISREGARD THIS POST i cant remove it

Edited January 22, 2016 by w7412651

[mossman77]

Just FYI, "Nom" stands for nominal, which is the typical operating voltage.

[harleydgriffith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a capacitor on the AC circuit mitigate (if not eliminate) the "low voltage shut down" problem?

[mossman77]

No, it won't. Stores charge and therefore has the effect of rectifying an AC waveform. The capacitor would act like a filter and add a DC component to the AC, which the ballast would not like. You're thinking of a DC powered device where a capacitor would help maintain the DC input for short bursts when the current draw spikes.

Edited January 22, 2016 by mossman77

[Chuck.]

May

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a capacitor on the AC circuit mitigate (if not eliminate) the "low voltage shut down" problem?

 

Maybe. IMO best to use a battery if you need protection from low voltage shut down, after all that is what they do. Cars are a good example when the battery provide power at low speeds when the alternator cannot.

 

On the XR I installed a large Racetech 27000uf 50volt capacitor as a battery substitute, the horn would only make a short bleep with the engine off, so not much storage capacity,

The capacitor was a filter in the system, like a battery, and absorbed voltage spikes that caused the regulator to over react.  The symptom was the headlight dimming as rpm increased from idle. Others have said a 10kuf would also work.

 

Also note that AC voltage readings are usually RMS which  is about .7 of the peak voltage. So a 12volt AC RMS reading will have peaks of about 17volts.  This is so AC  volts will have the same power as  DC volts.

[harleydgriffith]

May

Maybe. IMO best to use a battery if you need protection from low voltage shut down, after all that is what they do. Cars are a good example when the battery provide power at low speeds when the alternator cannot.

On the XR I installed a large Racetech 27000uf 50volt capacitor as a battery substitute, the horn would only make a short bleep with the engine off, so not much storage capacity,

The capacitor was a filter in the system, like a battery, and absorbed voltage spikes that caused the regulator to over react. The symptom was the headlight dimming as rpm increased from idle. Others have said a 10kuf would also work.

Also note that AC voltage readings are usually RMS which is about .7 of the peak voltage. So a 12volt AC RMS reading will have peaks of about 17volts. This is so AC volts will have the same power as DC volts.

IMHO, the mixed output system complicates what should be simple any way. When I get around to dual sporting my 250x I want to go all LED and swap the stator for a DC-only one just to eliminate complications.

I suppose a capacitor makes more sense from a "draw spike" perspective than a "charge deficient" perspective.