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Best 4CS re-valve at home

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In case you guys were interested, the guys over at thumpertalk "internet gurus" got a shout out in the latest blog post!

Today should be looked upon as a breakthrough day, not just for me as a rider, but also for the little 150. After last weekends ride, my friend Scotty who knows quite a bit about suspension and I had a long talk. After riding the bike, he realized what was wrong and told me to check the fork oil height.

So mid week I washed the bike and checked the oil height, it was around 310cc. Now, with WP forks, that’s a LOW oil height, I generally run 350cc’s, that’s where the air gap is small enough under compression, to help with bottoming. Scotty is a KYB tuner and I have KYB internals on my WP fork tubes, so he rattled off a number of 230cc’s, being the best place to start. Since he couldn’t get close to bottoming the bike and he weighs 50lb more then I do, suffice to say, the oil height was an issue. So we negotiated a new oil height of 250cc’s, just to insure I wouldn’t have to ADD more oil during the day and it would be a good test

I also decided to decrease the rear spring rate from a 4.2 to a 4.0. KTM recommends a 3.9 and the “internet” guru’s recommended a 3.8. However, I did research and it was nearly impossible to find a 3.8 or 3.9. The lowest shock spring I could find in stock was a 4.0. So I bit the bullet and made the purchase, even though it’s not much of a difference rate wise. I wanted to at least be in the ballpark.

Today was the “big test” and boy did it go well. Not only did I know the new track better, but I just felt better riding the bike from the moment I swung my leg over it. That 60cc of oil reduction in the front made a dramatic difference, night and day, enough to say WOW this bike is getting close. Around mid-day Scotty started standing on the sidelines, watching me ride, so he could see what was wrong. I then supplied him with some tools and we spent a solid hour tweaking the bike. First sag and raising the front of the bike up to help with head shake. Then comp/reb rear and finishing with some small clicker changes in the forks.

The good news is that the bike feels more planted then it has been. The bad news is, to get the bike working this way, the clicker adjustments are way out of spec, telling me the stuff still isn’t valved properly on Travis’s 3rd try. The forks clearly have too much high speed damping in them and the shock has too much over-all damping, but mostly rebound. So I’m going to bite the bullet in a week or two and drive down to Scotty’s place saturday, pull the bike apart and do the work there. He has all the tools and nitrogen filling station, so it will be very easy to get the stacks closer to something a bit more working. Plus, since he’s so well verse in the KYB forks, it’s will be easy for him to figure out IF there is anything else wrong. I know Travis uses his own mid valve design, which doesn’t work well for “plushness”, which has of course, always been my big beef.

I’m pretty happy with how I rode today as well. It’s nice not being the slowest guy on the track and being able to pass weekend warriors at a whim. Unfortunately, I still can’t churn in the laps like I want to, that’s what happens when you spend months sitting in a chair not exercising. However, the added confidence I gained through today’s changes, is what I’ve been waiting for. Now I feel it’s time to get back to training and really get my speed back. It will take a while and it will cost a lot of money in practice time, but I think it’s worth it if I’ve got more days like today in my future.

So none of this applies to stock WP 4CS forks then since this set up is with kyb internals?

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So none of this applies to stock WP 4CS forks then since this set up is with kyb internals?

Yes, you that is correct.

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Just want to add my 2 cents to this topic. I have a 2014 Husky TE 250. I weigh 190lbs when I ride MX. In full kit it goes up to 205 lbs.

 

I love the bike and when I started racing it I was very slow and the bike's suspension was excellent. It has the plushest suspension I have ever felt. But as I got better and faster I started noticing the suspension keeps bottoming. I race fast offroad races and we hit 150 kmh (+-93mph) and it gets way too soft for that.

 

The stock forks have 4.2 springs and the shock has a 5.4. I then got my friends FE 350 rear spring which is a 5.7 and tested it out. It worked much better but it threw the balance of the chassis way out. The fork were diving badly when braking. Then we got a MX track where I live and I started riding MX for the first time. Our track does not have huge jumps like your american tracks but my enduro was way too soft for it. The forks bottomed hard everywhere. Last week I went up two rates to a 4.6 in the front.

Wow what a difference it made. It completely changed the bike. I can now hit almost every jump at our track. It is still on the soft side but it is manageable. My forks however now are plush and don't bottom anywhere even with my soft enduro valving. The biggest jumps I hit now are about 50ft which I think is not bad for a enduro bike. My one friend hits 110ft jumps with his stock FE 250 without problems, but he is a pro racer.  I do know however that my TE does have a bottoming cone which I think the US versions don't have.

 

My point is just that these forks really are not that bad. Their biggest problem is that they dive way too easy but with the right springs they stay up in the stroke and then they can work much better. Our one tuner even suggested I go to a 4.8 but I would really need to step up my speed to go that stiff.  Once I have money again I will have my suspension revalved but until then I am very happy with them. Just my experience with them.

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I dunno if there's a home remedy for the 4CS forks, but the right tuner can make them work very well. I sent mine to PG Powersports, and with shipping parts seals springs etc, forks and shock revalve were $950.

But lemme tell you, the very first turn I took, I could feel a huge improvement. I never understood how pros could ride and turn like their tires had Velcro on them. But it's all the suspension.

PG sadly went out of biz. So I gotta find someone else of similar renown to fix my stuff in the future.

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I told tye about his springs straight away but he will go down this road over and over

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I miss Tye. I have had my susp woes but Tye is an awesome entertainer. Come back Tye, wherever you are.

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I told tye about his springs straight away but he will go down this road over and over

 

Thats why I posted it haha

I miss Tye. I have had my susp woes but Tye is an awesome entertainer. Come back Tye, wherever you are.

Me too, or atleast enable comments on his blog posts....

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I miss Tye. I have had my susp woes but Tye is an awesome entertainer. Come back Tye, wherever you are.

You have to stand in front of a mirror, close your eyes and repeat his name 3 times....

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I cant help but think how much time and effort goes into these "epic failures".

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I cant help but think how much time and effort goes into these "epic failures".

I think Tye suffers from Munchausen by proxy and his bikes are the innocent victims. Edited by wes513v
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Tye gets a somewhat deserved, but kind of undeserved bad rep around here.  I've ridden with him before and he truly is a nice guy.  Over-analyzing, yes.  Chasing his tail at times, yes.  Chasing a unicorn as far as suspension settings is concerned....YES.  But nice nonetheless.  Tye is a tough guy to valve for because not only is he extremely picky, but he's in that tough category where he doesn't downside a lot of the medium-large sized tabletops....but he wants it to be stiff enough to handle hard flat landings yet plush enough to handle chop and braking bumps at a slow c-level pace.  You can get both of those characteristics but they won't suit slower guys.  The kind of characteristics those settings work for are the fast type who require stiffness because they over clear jumps and charge right through the braking bumps.  Not the guys who want the best of both worlds.

 

I know most people are smart enough to know this; but for those who don't know, Travis is the real deal when it comes to tuning.  He has a shit ton of testing hours with a lot of different kinds of riders in lots of different kind of terrain...and as long as your honest with him..he'll dial you in spot on.  Travis and I were cruising through San Diego today looking for my next house.  We started talking shop, and he said he felt like he gained ground on his third try with Tye, which was giving him what I thought Tye should be riding with all along....which is an aggressive off-road setting.  And how did Travis arrive at this setting? he watched Tye.  Travis is type of guy that will valve for exactly how fast you tell him you are, or how fast he see's that you are.  The first set of suspension I gave travis needed some tweaking.  I called him up on the phone one day (based on the recommendation of everyone in District 37 and NHHA), told him how fast I was and valved accordingly.   At the time I was finishing out my tenure in the B's...so I told him valve for an A rider.  He did as I asked. 1 week later I raced a national and right after I finished I motored right over to his box van, introduced myself and told him I was getting bounced all over the place.  He watched me ride through some rocks and pound some whoops for a few minutes....then started tweaking. He backed out the clickers and everything was much better.  But I quickly realized that I had made a mistake and he valved exactly how I told him to.  Fast forward a few years and all I do now is drop off suspension at his shops, tell him what I need....and because he knows me and knows how I ride, I get my suspension back a couple days later and its always spot on  :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Btw...Travis and I were talking about the whole AER vs SSS vs OC settings as we were talking about my options when I get my new bike shortly.  He said it'll be tough to get either of those better than what he can do with OC forks.  Equal performance, yes.  Better performance, maybe not  ;)

Edited by Andrew_v949
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Sorry I'm. Confused he gets oc forks to work better than cc and aer ? That's a first in the industry for mx , are you talking just woods ?

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Sorry I'm. Confused he gets oc forks to work better than cc and aer ? That's a first in the industry for mx , are you talking just woods ?

 

The 4cs to OC conversion was starting to be a "standardish" fix to get those forks fixed....MX nad offroad.  The OC forks aren't generally soft because of design...its because of the valving put in them for their intended "general" use.  Which like you stated was woods riding because thats the forks that came on KTM's "woods" models.  The valving Travis put in my OC forks was developed for Ryan Kudla who is a top desert guy and ISDE fast.  Me personally, I'm an A level desert racer and a fast C level mx guy and those forks blow my CC's out of the water.  Its not even close

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So we are saying for a fast desert racer a wp oc fork is superior to a wp cc fork in general or all cc forks like say a kyb or showa , it's just your the first person to say the oc fork out performs a cc fork in anything but woods , I'm struggling to understand what he did, people have been valving oc forks for years and never stumbled across a setup that is better than a good cc fork?

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Oc forks are generally soft as you put a stiff midvalve in them and you get cavitation , that's the design improvement of the cc fork , for some applications this feels good as you get less damping on hard fast hits (as long as you don't bottom badly )

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So we are saying for a fast desert racer a wp oc fork is superior to a wp cc fork in general or all cc forks like say a kyb or showa , it's just your the first person to say the oc fork out performs a cc fork in anything but woods , I'm struggling to understand what he did, people have been valving oc forks for years and never stumbled across a setup that is better than a good cc fork?

I'm talking WP oc forks vs WP cc forks.  I'm not sure exactly what he did valving-wise.  To tell you the truth I have no clue about valving of any type.  My job as one of his guys is just to give him feed back.  After he developed the settings for Ryan, he gave them to me to see what someone who isn't ISDE fast thought.  My first outing with them was racing motocross...and at Glen Helen of all places.  So it was a good test to see how they did.  The OC forks out performed my CC forks everywhere.  This is just me speculatuing, but I don't think a lot of people put in the time trying to valve OC forks for anything but east coast racing because virtually all the fast guys out west ride XC's.    Ryan bought an xcw because he preferred the PDS setup, so that's what Travis had to work with.  This was 3 years ago.  And while my valving on both of my OC forks and CC forks have gotten stiffer as I've gotten faster, my open cartridge forks have ALWAYS been better than my CC forks.  They have a very progressive feel with zero of the pogo-sticking that has plagued the CC forks.  They don't deflect in the rocks and stay progressive when I slam into g-outs while doing off-road.  And when I moto they go right through the chop and don't blow through the stroke like my CC forks did when I would come up short or overclear something

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I still say, again; the oc conversion, with tuning (rci pistons/stock tuned mid) would have gotten him close to what he needed. I get the flat landing and braking bump compliance he's looking for. Could have gone back to the 90s for that.

You could use more spring, more oil, and lighter valving. The wallow would not hurt his beginner cornering speed. As his skill develops, the jump clearing, and the corner speed increasing, he can get back to an mx platform.

And most importantly, he would not be "backtracking " my 2 cents of course.

But, it sounds like hes making progress so good for his tuner taking the time to watch him ride.

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I'm talking WP oc forks vs WP cc forks. I'm not sure exactly what he did valving-wise. To tell you the truth I have no clue about valving of any type. My job as one of his guys is just to give him feed back. After he developed the settings for Ryan, he gave them to me to see what someone who isn't ISDE fast thought. My first outing with them was racing motocross...and at Glen Helen of all places. So it was a good test to see how they did. The OC forks out performed my CC forks everywhere. This is just me speculatuing, but I don't think a lot of people put in the time trying to valve OC forks for anything but east coast racing because virtually all the fast guys out west ride XC's. Ryan bought an xcw because he preferred the PDS setup, so that's what Travis had to work with. This was 3 years ago. And while my valving on both of my OC forks and CC forks have gotten stiffer as I've gotten faster, my open cartridge forks have ALWAYS been better than my CC forks. They have a very progressive feel with zero of the pogo-sticking that has plagued the CC forks. They don't deflect in the rocks and stay progressive when I slam into g-outs while doing off-road. And when I moto they go right through the chop and don't blow through the stroke like my CC forks did when I would come up short or overclear something

Have you ever tried a KYB SSS conversion fork?

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