Supercross Kenny proving slow progression of MX bikes

[phantom451]

All Kenny proved was tears don't win races

Edited April 16, 2016 by phantom451

[dan az]

the segment of offroad motorcycles that is continually making advancements is in the trials world, I have a 06 gas gas and it is night and day different than a 2015 gasgas or any other trials bike. Now on the mx bike side of things I enduro race a 07 yz250 and in reality the yz is not much different than any new bike, except the yz has better suspension which is kinda shocking since it is basically ten years old. it kinda amazes me that the new air forks seem to be a giant step backwards in performance.

[derrick318]

dungey kept on with aldon when ken didnt. really as simple as that. from what i see, the only thing orange has on any other color is being able to take the corners as low and tight as possible. RV was faster than dungey almost any given day, flat out. but rv didnt like the training and more so dreaded it, while dungey is ready for it and seems to want more and more. 80% rider and 20% bike. dungey is in better shape than anyone else out there. period. mentally and physically .just as rv was in his prime as he was putting the field to shame. in a way it sucks that winning has came down to this rigorous of a lifestyle, but you cant say aldon has figured out the perfect potion. he just took 3/4's of the fun away from it. but hey thats what it takes, obviously. 

[skypig]

I'm amazed at how difficult the last few percent seems to be to get right.

Anyone with enough money could get a bike 99% the same as a factory bike. Let alone teams like Monster Energy Kawasaki/RCH Suzuki. (Both failing to supply bikes that their riders seem happy with)

Top riders like Reed, Dungy, Roczen, and clearly at the moment, Tomac, have struggled to get the "feel" they need to go from 5th to first.

Changing things like lugs on the works forks. (I can't tell which tires I prefer in back to back tests - FFS!)

On the surface of it, I'd have thought a week of testing, but often they can struggle a whole season, sometimes never get there. (Eg several riders on "backwards" YZFs)

Some riders are better at riding around things, some need the perfect setup.

Didn't Trey Canard suddenly become a front runner after changing suspension brands?

Surely any works/A kit forks could be adjusted almost infinitely. But changing brands was required. (But not by his teammate.)

I guess it shows the level these dudes are racing at.

[RMZ819]

I'm amazed at how difficult the last few percent seems to be to get right.

Anyone with enough money could get a bike 99% the same as a factory bike. Let alone teams like Monster Energy Kawasaki/RCH Suzuki. (Both failing to supply bikes that their riders seem happy with)

Top riders like Reed, Dungy, Roczen, and clearly at the moment, Tomac, have struggled to get the "feel" they need to go from 5th to first.

Changing things like lugs on the works forks. (I can't tell which tires I prefer in back to back tests - FFS!)

On the surface of it, I'd have thought a week of testing, but often they can struggle a whole season, sometimes never get there. (Eg several riders on "backwards" YZFs)

Some riders are better at riding around things, some need the perfect setup.

Didn't Trey Canard suddenly become a front runner after changing suspension brands?

Surely any works/A kit forks could be adjusted almost infinitely. But changing brands was required. (But not by his teammate.)

I guess it shows the level these dudes are racing at.

It comes down to the rider. Kroc, Dungey, Tomac and Canard ect.. are not equal in Talent. Dungey has the most Talent, Want and Baker as the cherry on top.  

 

So in a nutshell the problem for every rider on the track is Dungey. Not the bike or suspension. They can test until they are blue in the face. But the perfect setup for Kroc is if Dungey were not racing. 

 

The best guy always wins. Not the Bike. A bike never carries a rider to victory. It is the other way around. If it were the bike there would be a underdog stroy in this sport. Guys like Weimer would actually get better results when they go from a small non funded team to a team like RCH. 

[skypig]

It comes down to the rider. Kroc, Dungey, Tomac and Canard ect.. are not equal in Talent. Dungey has the most Talent, Want and Baker as the cherry on top.  

 

So in a nutshell the problem for every rider on the track is Dungey. Not the bike or suspension. They can test until they are blue in the face. But the perfect setup for Kroc is if Dungey were not racing. 

 

The best guy always wins. Not the Bike. A bike never carries a rider to victory. It is the other way around. If it were the bike there would be a underdog stroy in this sport. Guys like Weimer would actually get better results when they go from a small non funded team to a team like RCH.

I'm not arguing that the rider isn't by far the most important component.

I'm saying that the bike setup is the final piece in the puzzle.

The best guy doesn't "always win". He might change bike brands and stop winning. Like Roczen did when he left KTM for Suzuki. Or Tomac from Honda to Kawasaki. (Both those guys were regularly beating Dungy. Now they are not. I'd suggest, at least partially due to bike set ups that don't suit them as well.)

Dungy was struggling for quite a while with the KTM. Even his wife said in an interview (after Dungy hit his current form) "we were all starting to worry it was Ryan, not the bike that was the problem."

Trey Canard changed his suspension and started winning - he didn't become someone else!

When Tomac was on a red bike he would ride the whoops so fast/spectacularly that he almost needed his own YouTube channel!

I'm just pointing out that if the set up doesn't suit the rider, it can be a serious handicap for some, and I'm amazed that it can be so hard to fix. (In some cases)

With my limited understanding, I thought damping, (a big variable) springs, rising rate (linkage) and ride height both ends is all they have to play with. But as I mentioned Chad Reed once claimed a better feeling with stiffer lugs on his works forks!!

Go back further and remember Jeremy McGrath riding out dated frames because he didn't like (couldn't get it set up) the current model. He couldn't get away with it for comercial reasons once they didn't resemble the latest Al frames....

[Chaconne]

I'm not arguing that the rider isn't by far the most important component.

I'm saying that the bike setup is the final piece in the puzzle.

The best guy doesn't "always win". He might change bike brands and stop winning. Like Roczen did when he left KTM for Suzuki. Or Tomac from Honda to Kawasaki. (Both those guys were regularly beating Dungy. Now they are not. I'd suggest, at least partially due to bike set ups that don't suit them as well.)

Dungy was struggling for quite a while with the KTM. Even his wife said in an interview (after Dungy hit his current form) "we were all starting to worry it was Ryan, not the bike that was the problem."

Trey Canard changed his suspension and started winning - he didn't become someone else!

When Tomac was on a red bike he would ride the whoops so fast/spectacularly that he almost needed his own YouTube channel!

I'm just pointing out that if the set up doesn't suit the rider, it can be a serious handicap for some, and I'm amazed that it can be so hard to fix. (In some cases)

With my limited understanding, I thought damping, (a big variable) springs, rising rate (linkage) and ride height both ends is all they have to play with. But as I mentioned Chad Reed once claimed a better feeling with stiffer lugs on his works forks!!

Go back further and remember Jeremy McGrath riding out dated frames because he didn't like (couldn't get it set up) the current model. He couldn't get away with it for comercial reasons once they didn't resemble the latest Al frames....

While it is true small things do matter, these are pro setups by pro teams that can adjust things on a dime. Rider confidence/psychology can be shaped by "changes" as well. Equipment always matters but it is the so-called "sharp end of the wedge" at the elite level.

 

As was said above RD is the best and would win on any of the top machines IMHO. RD is like Usain Bolt in track he could run in Nikes, Adidas, Brooks or whatever and still beat Gatlin even when Gatlin is cheating.

[GBowman]

If Dungey and Roczen changed teas, the wins would change too. 

[skypig]

While it is true small things do matter, these are pro setups by pro teams that can adjust things on a dime. Rider confidence/psychology can be shaped by "changes" as well. Equipment always matters but it is the so-called "sharp end of the wedge" at the elite level.

 

As was said above RD is the best and would win on any of the top machines IMHO. RD is like Usain Bolt in track he could run in Nikes, Adidas, Brooks or whatever and still beat Gatlin even when Gatlin is cheating.

You are ignoring the facts in my examples.

If you think Dungy (I'm a huge Dungy fan) could jump on the Monster Energy Kawasaki and start winning in a week, you have a different opinion to me.

I guess what I'm saying is: although I find it difficult to believe that he (example above) couldn't (pro teams set the bike to suit and away you go!) it's proven over and over that it's not the case.

[RMZ819]

It comes down to the rider. Kroc, Dungey, Tomac and Canard ect.. are not equal in Talent. Dungey has the most Talent, Want and Baker as the cherry on top.  

 

So in a nutshell the problem for every rider on the track is Dungey. Not the bike or suspension. They can test until they are blue in the face. But the perfect setup for Kroc is if Dungey were not racing. 

 

The best guy always wins. Not the Bike. A bike never carries a rider to victory. It is the other way around. If it were the bike there would be a underdog stroy in this sport. Guys like Weimer would actually get better results when they go from a small non funded team to a team like RCH. 

 

I'm not arguing that the rider isn't by far the most important component.

I'm saying that the bike setup is the final piece in the puzzle.

The best guy doesn't "always win". He might change bike brands and stop winning. Like Roczen did when he left KTM for Suzuki. Or Tomac from Honda to Kawasaki. (Both those guys were regularly beating Dungy. Now they are not. I'd suggest, at least partially due to bike set ups that don't suit them as well.)

Dungy was struggling for quite a while with the KTM. Even his wife said in an interview (after Dungy hit his current form) "we were all starting to worry it was Ryan, not the bike that was the problem."

Trey Canard changed his suspension and started winning - he didn't become someone else!

When Tomac was on a red bike he would ride the whoops so fast/spectacularly that he almost needed his own YouTube channel!

I'm just pointing out that if the set up doesn't suit the rider, it can be a serious handicap for some, and I'm amazed that it can be so hard to fix. (In some cases)

With my limited understanding, I thought damping, (a big variable) springs, rising rate (linkage) and ride height both ends is all they have to play with. But as I mentioned Chad Reed once claimed a better feeling with stiffer lugs on his works forks!!

Go back further and remember Jeremy McGrath riding out dated frames because he didn't like (couldn't get it set up) the current model. He couldn't get away with it for comercial reasons once they didn't resemble the latest Al frames....

The Honda was considered a pile of shit until RC jumped on it. Lusk, Tortelli ect.. could not win on it and everyone said it was the new frame. That all changed when they got RC on it and then the bike was dominate.

 

RM250. Nobody could win on it. Then here comes RC and done deal. The bike is dominate. The RMZ450 comes out and it dominates out of the box. How did that happen? Suzuki was awesome and nailed it with their 1st 450? Unlikly, They just happen to have #4 on it. 

 

RV rides the Kawi. It is the best bike on the line UNTIL?  No more RV. now It is just another bike. Tomac just can't seem to make it work. I Wonder why? It is Dungey Times that's why! 

 

KTM, The Frame only works on low traction bikes.  blah blah blah blah. Steel frames flex to much. They will never work on high traction. Then RV retires and Dungey takes over as the guy and now everyone loves the steel frame. it is amazing!!

 

The the stroy of the sport is. The best guy always wins the title. If someone wants to go way back to MC on the Suzuki then i will set you straight on that also. MC lost that title not the bike. He crashed out of a race on his own. If that mistake does not happen then he beats Emig. 

[GBowman]

If suspension doesnt mae a fifft, look at Dungys first five races of 2013, ge had air the first four and made them go back to springs. 

[GBowman]

The Honda was considered a pile of shit until RC jumped on it. Lusk, Tortelli ect.. could not win on it and everyone said it was the new frame. That all changed when they got RC on it and then the bike was dominate.

 

RM250. Nobody could win on it. Then here comes RC and done deal. The bike is dominate. The RMZ450 comes out and it dominates out of the box. How did that happen? Suzuki was awesome and nailed it with their 1st 450? Unlikly, They just happen to have #4 on it. 

 

RV rides the Kawi. It is the best bike on the line UNTIL?  No more RV. now It is just another bike. Tomac just can't seem to make it work. I Wonder why? It is Dungey Times that's why! 

 

KTM, The Frame only works on low traction bikes.  blah blah blah blah. Steel frames flex to much. They will never work on high traction. Then RV retires and Dungey takes over as the guy and now everyone loves the steel frame. it is amazing!!

 

The the stroy of the sport is. The best guy always wins the title. If someone wants to go way back to MC on the Suzuki then i will set you straight on that also. MC lost that title not the bike. He crashed out of a race on his own. If that mistake does not happen then he beats Emig. 

I dont have time to break down this whole post, but I will this first paragraph.  

Tortelli and Lusk rode the first generation frame and yes they were junk,  the test rider honda hired even said so. 

 

When Ricky signed with the he told them what he wanted the frame to do. They designed five different frames and he tested them and picked one. Then they made five variations of that frame to test durring the season until he hit what he wanted around round 5 or 6, I'm not sure which round but I'm sure someone can look it up and see a difference in results.  

[scottiesbe]

Clearly it's the new KTM, KTM has has raised the bar, you're just a hater, I'd venture a guess you and O.L. are distant cousins at a minimum.

brothas from another motha

[phantom451]

Not all bikes are created equal.

That's why I ride old blue .

[GoRide2]

It comes down to the rider. Kroc, Dungey, Tomac and Canard ect.. are not equal in Talent. Dungey has the most Talent, Want and Baker as the cherry on top.

So in a nutshell the problem for every rider on the track is Dungey. Not the bike or suspension. They can test until they are blue in the face. But the perfect setup for Kroc is if Dungey were not racing.

The best guy always wins. Not the Bike. A bike never carries a rider to victory. It is the other way around. If it were the bike there would be a underdog stroy in this sport. Guys like Weimer would actually get better results when they go from a small non funded team to a team like RCH.

Get it right bro. Dungey has a lot of talent but his biggest strength is his focus and drive. Basically, he's perfectly okay doing nothing but focusing on his career. Roczen and canard are more talented riders and Tomac had more physical ability. Edited April 23, 2016 by GoRide2

[redrider144]

I dont have time to break down this whole post, but I will this first paragraph.

Tortelli and Lusk rode the first generation frame and yes they were junk, the test rider honda hired even said so.

When Ricky signed with the he told them what he wanted the frame to do. They designed five different frames and he tested them and picked one. Then they made five variations of that frame to test durring the season until he hit what he wanted around round 5 or 6, I'm not sure which round but I'm sure someone can look it up and see a difference in results.

I tried a '97 CR250 once. It felt like I was riding a block of granite with wheels. It was super squirrelly. I can't imagine what it was like to race at their level.

I heard a recent interview with Skip Norfolk on PulpMX. They asked him about the '97 Honda; if there was any sign that MC hated it or that it sucked. He said no. Hmm, I find that very hard to believe.

[HondaH8r904]

Didnt MC say, "im not riding that washing machine "?

I remember reading the steel 93 frame would only last him a week before flexing

[jz125]

I'm not arguing that the rider isn't by far the most important component.

I'm saying that the bike setup is the final piece in the puzzle.

The best guy doesn't "always win". He might change bike brands and stop winning. Like Roczen did when he left KTM for Suzuki. Or Tomac from Honda to Kawasaki. (Both those guys were regularly beating Dungy. Now they are not. I'd suggest, at least partially due to bike set ups that don't suit them as well.)

Dungy was struggling for quite a while with the KTM. Even his wife said in an interview (after Dungy hit his current form) "we were all starting to worry it was Ryan, not the bike that was the problem."

Trey Canard changed his suspension and started winning - he didn't become someone else!

When Tomac was on a red bike he would ride the whoops so fast/spectacularly that he almost needed his own YouTube channel!

I'm just pointing out that if the set up doesn't suit the rider, it can be a serious handicap for some, and I'm amazed that it can be so hard to fix. (In some cases)

With my limited understanding, I thought damping, (a big variable) springs, rising rate (linkage) and ride height both ends is all they have to play with. But as I mentioned Chad Reed once claimed a better feeling with stiffer lugs on his works forks!!

Go back further and remember Jeremy McGrath riding out dated frames because he didn't like (couldn't get it set up) the current model. He couldn't get away with it for comercial reasons once they didn't resemble the latest Al frames....

Reed also rode a completely stock bike for a couple of races in 2011 when he started TwoTwo and was not just challenging, but out in front.

[Rich_Bing]

Reed also rode a completely stock bike for a couple of races in 2011 when he started TwoTwo and was not just challenging, but out in front.

A Pro Circuit built CRF not necessarily a stock bike.

[GBowman]

Reed also rode a completely stock bike for a couple of races in 2011 when he started TwoTwo and was not just challenging, but out in front.

Reed never rode anything near stock when he started Two Two.