new 2016 enduro R eating oil like a pig

[NoFiddyPilot]

Not saying impossible, but I don't think it falls on the size of "likely" either. I'm betting on improper break in, even if I can't prove it. Soon I'll know... Two bikes being broken in this weekend.

[PeterOnTheRoad]

Hi all, can anyone tell me why this 690 engine should need special running in ? I have owned 25 bikes over a period 45 years from old slow Triumps to very fast Kawasakis and Aprillias and unless they vere worn out in cylinder / piston or valve stems they did not have this kind of issue. I also own a Husky 501 and it doesn't have this problem. Try to compare to a high performance 12 cylinder Fararri or Lambo, does any of them need 12 liter oil per 1000 km during running in. Or do a new Kawa H2R with 320 HP use all oil in the sump on the first lap ?

If any other engine with much higher specific power and higher revs can make it on less oil a 690 should be able to do so too if its designed and made properly.

A technician from KTM told me after my bike was at the dealer to investigate this issue that the 690 is very sensitive to oil filling level and if the owner tryes to keep it constantly a bit too high it will suck the oil up through the airbox. After I got the bike back I keep the level lower and it seem to make a difference. This is rather a design error than anything else.

[dLeo]

so pete, you had your bike in for investigation on this issue??? What was the dealer's conclusion???

[PeterOnTheRoad]

Hi dLeo

Here in Thailand they are not so Experienced with this bike but a senior KTM engineer from Austria had a look together with the dealer and they vere not able to identify any issues. Like myself they couldn't detect any smoke from oilburning a any time. I was advised to keep the oil level not higher than center of the inspection window since the 690 engine is sensitive to high oil level due to the design of the crank case ventilation. Due to a dirtbike injury I have not ridden much since so I cant say for sure how much difference it makes before I go for a longer trip again.

[DrKayak]

I run the oil level high on my 2011 690. I used to obsess about getting it perfect in the center of the glass. Gave up on that and have never found any oil from the breather in the air box. 

A buddy's 2014 is one with the oil use issue. You can see the extra residue on the muffler from the oil use. Dealer told him to put break-in oil in it and try to run the engine under heavy load. This made no noticeable improvement and begs the question - Why do only a few bike need this break-in procedure? 

Ultimately it's not using enough oil to justify a tear down but some have to carry a small bottle of oil to top it off on multi-day rides. 

[EmpireofDerp]

Aren't these under warrantee? If I had one they wouldn't fix and it was under warrantee I'd just run it dry and grenade it, then they could buy me a new engine. I'd not be satisfied with being told to just baby my lemon.

[dLeo]

well heavyrotation, it's not that simple  – KTM told the dealer that 1:1 oil consumption is technically on-spec for this type of 'high-performance machine'. And as ludicrous as that may be, if KTM is standing behind it then there's not much battle you can engage in with them in terms of warranty. And while I do applaud your aggressive approach, it would just end in frying your bike by your own hand with KTM telling you you didn't put enough oil in the 'high-performance machine'. DrKayak has probably said the most accurate statement on this entire topic –  'Ultimately it's not using enough oil to justify a tear down but some have to carry a small bottle of oil to top it off on multi-day rides.'   

[coarsegoldkid]

Rings, oil seal on the valve, or possibly a head gasket is allowing oil into the combustion chamber.  So if KTM doesn't step up to the plate on any oil consumption issue it's time just add oil to work with it or tear the top end off and work on it.  I'm not a pro mechanic by any means but I just completed a total engine rebuild on my 690 due to another problem. I can tell you the top end is easy to repair.  The only special tools needed for that top end are: valve spring compressor(getting the correct size can be crazy making), TDC position bolt for keeping every thing from moving on you (good to have for valve adjustments but not really necessary), feeler gauges from 0.07mm to 0.13mm, shim tool kit(best one is in 0.025 increments), something like a 3m scratch pad to clean and polish off the cylinder bore in rotating downward motions, and a piston ring compressor.  I did all my work on the bench.

You can of course have someone else do the entire job or send the cylinder, head, and piston out for someone else to do install new valve seals, lightly hone the cylinder, measure the install the rings on the piston and insert it into the cylinder.   I do my own work so I buy the special tools(ebay is your friend) because I just roll that way.  Total cost for a new bottom end, case bearings here and there, gasket set, rings and tools was about 1300 dollars US.  A top end would be less than 400 dollars is my guess.

Parts needed are new rings, piston if necessary(mine was lightly scared by some metal bits I suppose but I polished it to a satisfactory level), new head and base gasket, new valve seals, shims, maybe a spark plug.

A note about 690 cylinders/pistons/rings.  There are two diameter sizes of cylinder bores and piston diameters but only one size of rings.  Mine measured the larger size but I was only changing the rings so it didn't matter but I had to check anyway.  Maybe, just maybe at the factory the smaller piston gets slid into the larger bore.  This arrangement might cause less pressure on the rings to seat or oil ring to seal properly.  Just a thought.

As for break-in I didn't even give it a thought.  I put in the desired amount of Motul 10-60 red stuff synthetic and ran it at all RPM levels and loads during a dirt ride.  No oil consumption after about 600 miles.  Before the rebuild the bike did consume an acceptable amount I thought so it didn't worry me.

And yes these engines are high performance designs ready to race.

I hope you get it solved as these are great bikes.

[Brilloman]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:14 AM, PeterOnTheRoad said:

Hi all, can anyone tell me why this 690 engine should need special running in ? I have owned 25 bikes over a period 45 years from old slow Triumps to very fast Kawasakis and Aprillias and unless they vere worn out in cylinder / piston or valve stems they did not have this kind of issue. I also own a Husky 501 and it doesn't have this problem. Try to compare to a high performance 12 cylinder Fararri or Lambo, does any of them need 12 liter oil per 1000 km during running in. Or do a new Kawa H2R with 320 HP use all oil in the sump on the first lap ?

If any other engine with much higher specific power and higher revs can make it on less oil a 690 should be able to do so too if its designed and made properly.

A technician from KTM told me after my bike was at the dealer to investigate this issue that the 690 is very sensitive to oil filling level and if the owner tryes to keep it constantly a bit too high it will suck the oil up through the airbox. After I got the bike back I keep the level lower and it seem to make a difference. This is rather a design error than anything else.

When my bike ran low on oil I did have it filled to the upper level of the sight glass and there was excessive oil in the airbox (which I thought I over oiled the filter) so there may be some truth to that over filling explanation.

[EmpireofDerp]

well heavyrotation, it's not that simple  – KTM told the dealer that 1:1 oil consumption is technically on-spec for this type of 'high-performance machine'. And as ludicrous as that may be, if KTM is standing behind it then there's not much battle you can engage in with them in terms of warranty. And while I do applaud your aggressive approach, it would just end in frying your bike by your own hand with KTM telling you you didn't put enough oil in the 'high-performance machine'. DrKayak has probably said the most accurate statement on this entire topic –  'Ultimately it's not using enough oil to justify a tear down but some have to carry a small bottle of oil to top it off on multi-day rides.'   

I had any 06 Daytona 675 that sounded wrong from break in. Took it in multiple times, clueless dealer said nothing wrong with it. With scheduled maintenance it grenaded at 6k. Cams were badly galled from manufacturing debris. They tried to give me the run around saying I rode it to death lol. I was like, you sold me a factory ready race bike, so I flogged it. They paid for the motor, my local dealer built and balanced it perfectly, was way better than stock. Some bikes just get put together shitty.

[Brilloman]

I wish there was an engine builder that is a 690 guru who has rebuilt enough of these engines to pinpoint the exact reason that some burn oil and some don't. If it was a bad piston ring seal wouldn't a leak down test or a compression test show something? I would think that if my bike was using a quart of oil every 1000 miles or less (my bike did) wouldn't it smoke more than a bike that doesn't use oil?

If the problem is that over filling forces oil out the crank case vent into the airbox ( I had excessive oil in my airbox) wouldn't it stop when the oil got to the correct level? Why would it continue to blow out the crank case vent until it is out of oil? 

Based on the sampling of owners in this thread there is most definitely an issue. What percentage of bikes produced? 10%? 20%? There are enough bikes with the problem that there should be someone that has been inside enough of these engines to be able to figure it out based on facts and not educated guesses. I would think that KTM knows what the problem is but they don't want to assume liability by admitting that there is a problem. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Brilloman
Grammer

[RiverRunner]

On 5/12/2017 at 1:43 PM, Brilloman said:

When my bike ran low on oil I did have it filled to the upper level of the sight glass and there was excessive oil in the airbox (which I thought I over oiled the filter) so there may be some truth to that over filling explanation.

I'm running 2.2 L of Mobile 1 0-40 weight oil in my wife's bike and mine - both are MY15's.  This level is over the top of the sight glass.  Never had oil in filter box.  Bikes don't use oil.  We made sure to run long no throttle runs down mountain grades when new - I believe it helps to stress rings on the power side and the engine breaking side to set the rings.  Our bikes don't use oil.

[sclaus]

On 4/22/2017 at 6:14 AM, PeterOnTheRoad said:

Hi all, can anyone tell me why this 690 engine should need special running in ? I have owned 25 bikes over a period 45 years from old slow Triumps to very fast Kawasakis and Aprillias and unless they vere worn out in cylinder / piston or valve stems they did not have this kind of issue. I also own a Husky 501 and it doesn't have this problem. Try to compare to a high performance 12 cylinder Fararri or Lambo, does any of them need 12 liter oil per 1000 km during running in. Or do a new Kawa H2R with 320 HP use all oil in the sump on the first lap ?

If any other engine with much higher specific power and higher revs can make it on less oil a 690 should be able to do so too if its designed and made properly.

A technician from KTM told me after my bike was at the dealer to investigate this issue that the 690 is very sensitive to oil filling level and if the owner tryes to keep it constantly a bit too high it will suck the oil up through the airbox. After I got the bike back I keep the level lower and it seem to make a difference. This is rather a design error than anything else.

@PeterOnTheRoad, I can't tell you "WHY" these bikes are susceptible to burning oil, but what I can tell you is that I've consistently used a specific break-in procedure with all of my "vehicles" over the years (dirt, street, watercraft, boat, auto) and have yet to burn a drop of oil...my 2017 Husqvarna 701 is no exception at it's current 1000 mile mark. @Bryan Bosch and I be doing a blog post over at #DualSportDuo (here on TT) on that procedure, including the current state of each of our bikes.

 

[NoFiddyPilot]

I have a Blackstone oil analysis vile sitting on my desk that I'm going to fill at my next oil change. I'll share the results that should help understand the overall health of my engine. But, so far no issues with oil consumption.

[PeterOnTheRoad]

My Husky 701 from 2016 did also use a 1 liter oil / 1000 kilometer in the beginning but now after 9000 km it has reduced. Seams that the oil rings has seated now. I don't know if its human error when mounting the rings or what but KTM and Husky' have very different oil consumption in the beginning up to 10,000 km.

Sent from my G8232 using ThumperTalk mobile app

[Windblown]

'17 690. 7000 miles on the ODO at this point. At the advice of my dealer I have been running dino oil rather than synthetic from the start and I've run it like I stole it pretty much from day one, again per his suggestion.

I changed the oil at 635 miles, 3600 miles and at 6950 miles. Oil use was for sure higher during break-in and up thru the 2nd oil change. This last change oil level had dropped by 300ml in 3450 miles which I consider pretty good for hard run thumper. 

I run synthetic in every other bike I own and it goes against my instincts to run dino oil. However I'm following the dealers recommendation and so far he hasn't been wrong.  Maybe I was just lucky. 

 

 

[mixgashaulbass]

Maybe it wants to be a 2 stroke

[RevyRoamer]

Hi everyone. 

I just joined Thumper Talk to read up on bikes, in hopes of helping me choose my next bike. Leaning towards a Husqvarna 701 Dualsport, but unsure yet.

So it is with great interest I read this thread. 

But over the years I have owned many bikes, boats, pwc, cars, trucks, large and small equipment etc. Not one of them has used excessive oil, and i did not do a special break in procedure on any either. I hear the two sides, from baby a new engine, to be extra hard on it.

All I've ever done is treat them like I would use them in regular use. Be it towing with a brand new pickup truck, to carving the twisties on a crotch rocket, to water skiing or fishing off the new boat. Or just going for a leisurely drive in a new car or on a new street bike. 

 

What i would not do is not check the oil level for 2000 kms. I check the oil level at most ever 300 kms, usually less.

Only thing i do with a new engine is changing the oil and filter early the first time. Most people will probably not do that, and just follow the regular schedule in the owners manual.

I just feel better changing it early is all. My new 2017 pickup got its first oil change at 721 kms, but will probably go more around 10,000 kms between oil changes from now on, its getting close at 9,200 kms on it now, and its still at 2/3 of the way up between the add and full marks, and I've added not a drop since changing it.

[skypig]

My 690 E used no oil.

My current ‘17 701 SM uses none so far- 3750km. (Semi synthetic at 1000km. Planning full synthetic next change.)

All I do is avoid idleing and constant throttle as much as possible when new. I also change the oil early to begin with. And ride it like I plan to for as long as I own it.

[rusky]

My '16 was using a little more than 1 liter per 1000 miles and it was driving me crazy. I went to the dealer several times for the issue. First they gave me the runaround, citing KTMs 1:1 rule. Finally they took the bike in and tore it apart. After much back n forth with Husky, they rebuilt my top end under warranty. 

I'm about 1000 miles into the new top end now and have continued using dino oil as suggested. When the bike was new, I think I should have stuck with it for a longer time.