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Will a 230 motor fit in a 200r frame?

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Gonna start a new thread on this so it doesn't take over Chad's post. Chad, glad to hear the battery location is working out great

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Found this intake manifold. I think it's a powroll unit that was used to put that 28mm mukuni on the 200. Just under 29mm bore. I'm going to see if it can serve as a foundation for a pwk swap.

IMG_0875.thumb.JPG.b33ad202571f8cb8606c206b70d371d1.JPG

 

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14 hours ago, chadzu said:

Found this intake manifold. I think it's a powroll unit that was used to put that 28mm mukuni on the 200. Just under 29mm bore. I'm going to see if it can serve as a foundation for a pwk swap.

IMG_0875.thumb.JPG.b33ad202571f8cb8606c206b70d371d1.JPG

 

So is the flange O.D. supposed to be the same O.D. as the carb, and then you can use a simple radiator hose clamped to them? I was thinking about doing something like that for the PWK so I wouldn't have to press anything on to the new carb...

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The issue is the ID of available radiator hoses. I made a manifold by machining the carb flange off a XR200R mainifold and using a radiator hose. I reused that manifold for the PWK but the OD end of the PWK is too small so I needed an adapter. The CRF230F manifold is an option but its ID is larger than the PWK and it points the carb further right than the late XR200R manifold (it is marked "KTO" on the top).

So shop avaialable radiator hose sizes.

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Yeah I was just thinking I could copy the 230 manifold and machine one to match the O.D. of the pwk. I don't really like the idea of pressing/jb weld an adapter onto the carb, but then again a radiator hose looks kinda redneck as well...

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Yes the mukuni that was on this manifold used a small section of radiator hose.

My initial plan was to use the lathe to make a press on adapter for the pwk, and use the kto manifold.  That still may be the best solution.

Chuck, does the 150f use a similar but smaller carb?

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Yes the mukuni that was on this manifold used a small section of radiator hose.
My initial plan was to use the lathe to make a press on adapter for the pwk, and use the kto manifold.  That still may be the best solution.
Chuck, does the 150f use a similar but smaller carb?


24mm carb

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Chuck, does the 150f use a similar but smaller carb?

The 150F uses a PD carb with a flange mount to the manifold, looks just like the XR200 carb.

The problem with manifolds is how they angle the carb relative to the centerline of the bike; the 150/230 have the carb outside the frame so lots of angle to the right, the XR200s carbs are inside the frame so less angle to the right, and the twin shock models have carbs closer to the centerline of the bike.

I made a manifold by chucking the carb end of a XR200R manifold  in a lathe via the ID and then cut the OD to suit the selected radiator hose.

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Did a little fork rework. In an attempt to limit tire rub I made some 13mm spacers that go between the top cap and the spring guide. This basically makes the fork bottom out 13mm sooner and keeps the factory hydraulic bump stop unmodified. I then shortened the top out spring 13mm. I then added 13mm of preload spacer to keep the spring happy. Net result is no decrease in travel and 13mm more tire clearance. I took the opportunity to sand the tubes and install new SKF seals and bushings. I decided to add some damping to the base valve. I added one face shim and changed the clamp. Should give some more low and high speed damping.
IMG_0877.JPG

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I've gotten my forks soft enough that I began experiences a lot of tire contact with the bottom side of the fender, couple of issues:

The forks were designed for smaller than 21" wheels.
The Honda fender I'm using has a 5/8" deep section under the triple, my CRF250X fender is almost flat under the lower triple. I have an old XR fender with a less deep section under the triple but it is big, old,  and red.
My XR steering stem is taller than a mini bike requiring a longer stem and moving the lower triple down.

Full compression on these forks is when the slider hits the big washer under the top cap. The washer has rubber pads to help absorb bottoming. Tests on my CR85 fork parts show that when the fork is fully compressed the stanchion is 0.8625" from the top of the slider axle casting. With the seal installed in the stanchion this gap reduces to 0.56".

With my setup the tire would seldom hit the fender if I had the tubes pushed down 1/2", but lots of fender contact with the tubes flush with the top of the triple. So a little research: I put the bike on a center stand and loosened both fork caps. Then used a ratchet strap to pull the axle up until the tire hit the fender, I determined fender contact when I couldn't rotate the tire by hand. I then measured the gap between the bottom of the stanchion and the casting on the slider; I had 1".

So I moved the tubes down 1/2" and repeated, this time the fork seals were about 1/2" from the slider casting.  So about 1/2" more of possible travel by moving the tubes down in the triples.
Because of top triple thickness I can't move the fork tube down too much, in stock triples no more than about 1/4", but can move them down 1/2" in the Outlaw triples. Other options are a fender with less depth under the triple, and/or reducing the height of the fender mount lugs. 

So when checking for clearance per above I would make sure there is 1/2" of clearance between the stanchion seal and the slider axle casting when the tire is tight against the fender.  And there is a range that you can slide the forks down in the triples.

Edited by Chuck.

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Fork mods worked out great. No clearance issues anymore and the added damping really helped balance out the suspension.

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Just read through to the end so will comment on some earlier posts.

The 230 sprocket has different offset for sure, so check your chain line. Chuck, here are some numbers to compare to an XR. On the 230 I get 42mm from the top rear engine mount boss plane to the outer surface of the sprocket checked with straight edges. I think its a good 5-6mm different than the XR??

I'm prepping a set of KTM105 forks now. I guessed at .42 springs based on the following info. I used the Race tech spring calculator for a KTM105 with my weight plus 25 extra lbs for difference between bikes. They said .38kg springs and stock was .30. Then I realized the 250r Freeride uses these forks and they come stock with .46's. Sooo,.. I worked backwards and figured my bike was 20 lbs lighter than the freeride and I only weigh 155 so I chose .42kg. Haven't mounted them yet but your selection of .44 makes me think I'm good because my bike weighs 25 lbs less than yours.

I will be making my new frame with a head tube length which is shorter than KTM so I can move the bottom clamp upwards and I also shortened the top out spring by about 5/8 but used a heavier spring. This increases my wheel travel and fixes the clearance problem. Front tire selection matters a lot for clearance,.. some tires are up to an inch shorter than others. I also installed Race tech gold valves. 

My strategy is to make the head tube to CR85 specs so I can use CRF150R forks, or with bushings, fit the smaller ktm bearings and forks. That way I can use the 20mm offset of the CR forks or the 14mm offset of the KTM forks. If you ride in sand a lot, the stock KTM 14mm offset will give a much better sand stability due to extra trail.

For my project, I bought a freeride swingarm which accepts the full KTM85 hub and brembo brakes laced to an 18 in rim. The swingarm is lighter than a full size KTM and later I'll try to make an even lighter one. I'll be setting up the custom frame to use either the KTM rear shock or a new surplus Cannondale Ohlins,.. I bought 20 of them for $25 each when they closed up. The Ohlins is close in size to the KTM shock and designed for no linkage.

You guys might also look at losing the linkage completely and fitting a KTM85 rear shock. Its a nice unit with a bigger piston and shaft than my XR650 had! You could possibly use your top mount and weld tabs onto the stock swingarm. Let me know if you need shock measurements.

Another future engine option is the use of 06 and up E-start crf150f motors. Its about the weight of kickstart but with e-start and you can buy kickstart parts to convert it too.  Also has wider stud spacing so you can drop on a 69.5mm big bore kit with no case machining for 225cc. Supposedly super torquey even with stock cam. We need to get Terry Miller working on stroker cranks and cams for these

I love frankenstein bikes  :thumbsup:

Edited by woodsryder

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Oh yeah,.. I'm using the CR85 fender which looks fine with the 21 wheel but is lighter than XR. It also has low profile mounting for tire clearance.

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I spaced the countershaft sprocket as far inboard as the splines will allow, and used some washers between the sprocket and the lock plate. That gets it pretty close, and changing the rear hub spacing a tiny bit makes up the rest.

The 20mm triple clamp seems to work really well on my bike.  6th gear sand washes and whoops, no head shake and the bike feels happy.  I tried the 14mm clamp and did not like it, steering was too heavy.

I like big front tires, so I figure out a way to make them fit.  A 90/100 front is so nice in the rocks and roots.  I have been running a 80/100 desert IT whick is a pretty tall front tire.  The KTM fender has the most clearance of any I have tried, but it's styling is well KTMish. I keep hoping Husky will put a better looking fender on the 85.

I want to keep this bike true to its XR heritage, Kind of my idea of what Honda could have built.  I am a fan of the linked rear suspension, with the addition of the late model 250 shock performance is pretty amazing.

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Just read through to the end so will comment on some earlier posts.

The 230 sprocket has different offset for sure, so check your chain line. Chuck, here are some numbers to compare to an XR. On the 230 I get 42mm from the top rear engine mount boss plane to the outer surface of the sprocket checked with straight edges. I think its a good 5-6mm different than the XR??

I'm prepping a set of KTM105 forks now. I guessed at .42 springs based on the following info. I used the Race tech spring calculator for a KTM105 with my weight plus 25 extra lbs for difference between bikes. They said .38kg springs and stock was .30. Then I realized the 250r Freeride uses these forks and they come stock with .46's. Sooo,.. I worked backwards and figured my bike was 20 lbs lighter than the freeride and I only weigh 155 so I chose .42kg. Haven't mounted them yet but your selection of .44 makes me think I'm good because my bike weighs 25 lbs less than yours.

................................

My strategy is to make the head tube to CR85 specs so I can use CRF150R forks, or with bushings, fit the smaller ktm bearings and forks. That way I can use the 20mm offset of the CR forks or the 14mm offset of the KTM forks. If you ride in sand a lot, the stock KTM 14mm offset will give a much better sand stability due to extra trail.

........................................................

Another future engine option is the use of 06 and up E-start crf150f motors. Its about the weight of kickstart but with e-start and you can buy kickstart parts to convert it too.  Also has wider stud spacing so you can drop on a 69.5mm big bore kit with no case machining for 225cc. Supposedly super torquey even with stock cam. We need to get Terry Miller working on stroker cranks and cams for these

The XR185/200s use two different lengths of counter shafts; short on early and long on 86+. Your 5-6mm  is the difference between the positions early and late counter shaft sprockets . The only issues are using an early motor in a late chassis, or vice versa. And the counter shafts interchange.

Springs do depend on where and how you ride. When I brought my X from AZ to the PNW I had to change from .46 to .42 springs plus a serious revalve.  My XR218 is 208 wo gas and I have used any where from .32 to .36 springs and gold valves in 150R forks, but I use the bike on trails with a lot of rock debris and tree roots, and tight gnarly ST stuff. With those soft springs the bike is terrible on whoops.

E-start is probably my next XR project; Chadzu just put a 230F engine in a late XR200R chassis so your comments about the 150 are interesting. Some weights would help me with my decision. Another thought is the CRF250X estart motor weighs 58 lbs, the same as a XR200R and at least 10lbs lighter than the 230F. The single radiator and fan on my 250 trials bike weighs 3lbs. 

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I just pulled the trigger on an EFI system.  I can't get the PD carb to work in the rough, both my '82 and now on this bike. 

 

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Oh boy... What system are you going with? I have no current plans to go EFI on my 200/230. Nonetheless, I'll be watching for your review once you get it up and running and how you adapted it to the bike.

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I was able to source a system made by KAYO. My friend has this set up on his bike, it has worked very well all summer with no problems. Very similar in function to the ecotron system. It comes with tuning software and cable. It is sized for a 9000 rpm 250, so I think it will adapt to the 230 platform fairly well.

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