TORQUE BEAST / HORSEPOWER MONSTER .... RUN , SAVE YOURSELVES!

[mixxer]

I just have to ask... In all seriousness....

Is everyone drinking some sort of kool-aide?? Everyone one hitting from a bong the size of a bathtub?? In some sort of rehab house suffering on methadone weaning?? Or has nobody ever ridden anything but an xr100 and stepped up to a crf230??

We don't have to act like we are riding greased lightening and our 230 is the hammer of Thor causing the earth to rotate on its axis when we throttle on...

I haven't figured out what is going on... Do we have to act extra manly because we have chosen a 230??

I have over 40 years of off roading under my oversized belt...

And I am very very happy to be building a 230...

For what are all the right reasons for me... Seat height.. e start... Reliability... Just plan all out controllable fun... And fun to personalize... Like restoring a hot rod or old truck...

And... I completely appreciate and respect guys like Terry Miller who are truly a gift to be doing the work they do... Time and talent... To give the air cooled thumper crowd a solid choice in better performance...

We start with some stuff we like... That we can't get elsewhere in the full tilt boogie techno wars of modern off road bikes.... Some simplicity and reliability...Lower seat... E start... Short wheelbase.. and then every seems to get silly and act like the bike is something it isn't... And never will be...

Heavy flywheel , 2 valve thumper... I love it for what it is... Simple , reliable, easy to maintain and hard to stall... Manuverable in the woods.. great fuel economy...

As adnohguy accurately describes ... I smile generator.. fun injection as opposed to Fuel Injected..

But it is not a tire shredding beast of the gods... And it ain't gonna be... No matter what... It just isn't...

Can you make more power... Absolutely... Is it fun...No question...

Will it make more power than an well setup xr400, or xr250... No it won't... It absolutely wont... Will it rip the spokes out of rear wheel and shred the knobs off the tire ?? Hell no it won't... is it going to outrun a 450 on a steep sand hill in northern Michigan or any huge dune... Not now, not ever..

Why can't everyone be realistic and be happy as a clam that it responds to the mods the way it actually does... Say it's relaible as a brick and as fun to ride and modify as a barrel full of monkey's... Without acting like the 450 class or 250mxers for that matter had better count their lucky stars that they don't have to contend with our 230 on the line...

Fast in the woods...Yes... Nimble in tight spots..Sure.. powermonger... Not a chance...

You guys are going to have to tell me where you buy your kool-aide...

[VortecCPI]

YES!!!  I am fifty years young and have spent a lot of time on top of many XR100s!

 

And...  I have never read a post where one of us wrote "Horsepower Monster"

 

I spent a few years on top of a 1983 Honda XL600.  Torque?  Heck yes!

I spent many years on top of a 1984 Al Baker XR265R.  It was a monster but torque?  No way.

I had quite a few rides on top of a 1991 Honda XR600.  Torque?  Heck yes!

I spent some time on top of a WR250F.  The engine was awful and as for torque?  No way.

I spent some time on top of a 1997 XR250 and 2003 XR250.  Torque?  Not so much.

I spent some time on top of a 2008 YZ250F.  It was a monster but torque?  No way.

I spent some time on top of a 2002 BM F650GS.  Torque?  Pretty good!

I had a few rides on top of a dyno-tuned CVO HD  .Torque?  Brutal!

I spent much time on top of a dyno-tuned HD.  Torque?  Crazy!

I currently ride a 1986 Yamaha SRX600.  Torque?  Heck yes!

My wife rides a Suzuki LS650 single.  Torque?  Heck yes!

 

I have spent time on many other bikes but I wanted to choose a wide variety of 4Ts for comparison.

 

Does a LG-4 305ci 5.0L SBC make a lot of low-speed torque?  Compared to a DZ 302ci 5.0L SBC absolutely.  Our posts are relative to other similar engines.

 

You have to realize when we rave about torque we mean right off idle and at very low engine speeds.  I have never ridden a bike with such a small engine that made so much torque.  I would have to guess a Powroll 218 with TQ cam is very similar and Chuck really likes his.

 

Obviously all the new liquid-cooled modern 4Ts make big torque but when and where?  The WR250F and YZ250F make good numbers on a dyno but are all but useless and worthless in the woods.  We tried time and time again to get the YZ250F around our two-mile closed-loop enduro track but in the end we just gave up.  It could not keep a CRF230 in sight.  A lot of that had to do with the MX chassis and gearbox but most of it was due to the torqueless 2T-like engine.  The engine reminded me a lot of the old Al Baker engine but the old Al Baker bikes had a proper chassis for woods work.

 

I guess I will reciprocate the question and ask you what other bikes you have ridden with similar displacement that make low-speed torque similar to the CRF230?

 

Please let's not compare liquid-cooled 450s and air-cooled 600s to the tiny 230.  If we're going to do that then we might as well compare the 450s and 600s to HDs.

 

My buddy's dyno-tuned CVO HD :    100 lb-ft at 2,200 RPM

 

Frank Nye stock and 247: 

 

WR250F and CRF250X: 

 

Have a really close look at the TQ of the CRF230 versus the newer 250s.  The 230 makes a lot of TQ at very low engine speeds.

 

Oh...  Our Kool-Aid comes from great builders/racers/tuners/winners like Frank Nye, Mike Coe, Pete Fisher, and Terry Miller!

Edited January 20, 2017 by VortecCPI

[adnohguy]

I just have to ask... In all seriousness....

Is everyone drinking some sort of kool-aide?? Everyone one hitting from a bong the size of a bathtub?? In some sort of rehab house suffering on methadone weaning?? Or has nobody ever ridden anything but an xr100 and stepped up to a crf230??

We don't have to act like we are riding greased lightening and our 230 is the hammer of Thor causing the earth to rotate on its axis when we throttle on...

I haven't figured out what is going on... Do we have to act extra manly because we have chosen a 230??

I have over 40 years of off roading under my oversized belt...

And I am very very happy to be building a 230...

For what are all the right reasons for me... Seat height.. e start... Reliability... Just plan all out controllable fun... And fun to personalize... Like restoring a hot rod or old truck...

And... I completely appreciate and respect guys like Terry Miller who are truly a gift to be doing the work they do... Time and talent... To give the air cooled thumper crowd a solid choice in better performance...

We start with some stuff we like... That we can't get elsewhere in the full tilt boogie techno wars of modern off road bikes.... Some simplicity and reliability...Lower seat... E start... Short wheelbase.. and then every seems to get silly and act like the bike is something it isn't... And never will be...

Heavy flywheel , 2 valve thumper... I love it for what it is... Simple , reliable, easy to maintain and hard to stall... Manuverable in the woods.. great fuel economy...

As adnohguy accurately describes ... I smile generator.. fun injection as opposed to Fuel Injected..

But it is not a tire shredding beast of the gods... And it ain't gonna be... No matter what... It just isn't...

Can you make more power... Absolutely... Is it fun...No question...

Will it make more power than an well setup xr400, or xr250... No it won't... It absolutely wont... Will it rip the spokes out of rear wheel and shred the knobs off the tire ?? Hell no it won't... is it going to outrun a 450 on a steep sand hill in northern Michigan or any huge dune... Not now, not ever..

Why can't everyone be realistic and be happy as a clam that it responds to the mods the way it actually does... Say it's relaible as a brick and as fun to ride and modify as a barrel full of monkey's... Without acting like the 450 class or 250mxers for that matter had better count their lucky stars that they don't have to contend with our 230 on the line...

Fast in the woods...Yes... Nimble in tight spots..Sure.. powermonger... Not a chance...

You guys are going to have to tell me where you buy your kool-aide...

Lol Mixxer:

Easy Grasshopper, you must be patient, while your highly talented experience is notably second to none , you my friend have not experienced your new toy to the fullest extent yet. Your time will come soon.

Your smiling face and laughter from under your helmet will soon be unavoidable.

Your passion for "wow, how can this be this much fun will be tugging on you for more, more, even more power... " be sure your suspension is the way you like it because when your riding on the rear wheel of your buddy's, all with $10,000 250's 300's and 450's, I suspect that your enthusiasm will be hard to contain.

Of course the bike will never be a rocket, goes without saying, but your riding buddy's will be doing a lot of looking and will find it difficult to not start asking a lot of questions....

When they do, you just state:

What?... it's just my wife's bike...

(A girls beginner bike is what they see)

A properly setup 230f is truly the ultimate sleeper bike. The bling is on the inside, where it cannot be seen to the average dirt bike owner.

It's just as much fun working on it as riding it....

It's truly addicting, You'll see....

Edited January 20, 2017 by adnohguy

[bajatrailrider]

I just have to ask... In all seriousness....

Is everyone drinking some sort of kool-aide?? Everyone one hitting from a bong the size of a bathtub?? In some sort of rehab house suffering on methadone weaning?? Or has nobody ever ridden anything but an xr100 and stepped up to a crf230??

We don't have to act like we are riding greased lightening and our 230 is the hammer of Thor causing the earth to rotate on its axis when we throttle on...

I haven't figured out what is going on... Do we have to act extra manly because we have chosen a 230??

I have over 40 years of off roading under my oversized belt...

And I am very very happy to be building a 230...

For what are all the right reasons for me... Seat height.. e start... Reliability... Just plan all out controllable fun... And fun to personalize... Like restoring a hot rod or old truck...

And... I completely appreciate and respect guys like Terry Miller who are truly a gift to be doing the work they do... Time and talent... To give the air cooled thumper crowd a solid choice in better performance...

We start with some stuff we like... That we can't get elsewhere in the full tilt boogie techno wars of modern off road bikes.... Some simplicity and reliability...Lower seat... E start... Short wheelbase.. and then every seems to get silly and act like the bike is something it isn't... And never will be...

Heavy flywheel , 2 valve thumper... I love it for what it is... Simple , reliable, easy to maintain and hard to stall... Manuverable in the woods.. great fuel economy...

As adnohguy accurately describes ... I smile generator.. fun injection as opposed to Fuel Injected..

But it is not a tire shredding beast of the gods... And it ain't gonna be... No matter what... It just isn't...

Can you make more power... Absolutely... Is it fun...No question...

Will it make more power than an well setup xr400, or xr250... No it won't... It absolutely wont... Will it rip the spokes out of rear wheel and shred the knobs off the tire ?? Hell no it won't... is it going to outrun a 450 on a steep sand hill in northern Michigan or any huge dune... Not now, not ever..

Why can't everyone be realistic and be happy as a clam that it responds to the mods the way it actually does... Say it's relaible as a brick and as fun to ride and modify as a barrel full of monkey's... Without acting like the 450 class or 250mxers for that matter had better count their lucky stars that they don't have to contend with our 230 on the line...

Fast in the woods...Yes... Nimble in tight spots..Sure.. powermonger... Not a chance...

You guys are going to have to tell me where you buy your kool-aide...

Not that way in Baja Hill Climbs no run at bottom/rocks /ruts/ brush/rock steps. 50hp and over 450s.back seat to the Girls bike. If just a power hill just hold wide open yes 450 is King,we have no easy hill climbs here.Im a little ashamed to admit. My other bikes built Wr450s/Cr500/Xr300/Xr440/KTM 200  cant get half way up hill climbs little girlie bike makes.Yes is goes slow at the top but it gets over the top.

[mixxer]

Lol Mixxer:

Easy Grasshopper, you must be patient, while your highly talented experience is notably second to none , you my friend have not experienced your new toy to the fullest extent yet. Your time will come soon.

Your smiling face and laughter from under your helmet will soon be unavoidable.

Your passion for "wow, how can this be this much fun will be tugging on you for more, more, even more power... " be sure your suspension is the way you like it because when your riding on the rear wheel of your buddy's, all with $10,000 250's 300's and 450's, I suspect that your enthusiasm will be hard to contain.

Of course the bike will never be a rocket, goes without saying, but your riding buddy's will be doing a lot of looking and will find it difficult to not start asking a lot of questions....

When they do, you just state:

What?... it's just my wife's bike...

(A girls beginner bike is what they see)

A properly setup 230f is truly the ultimate sleeper bike. The bling is on the inside, where it cannot be seen to the average dirt bike owner.

It's just as much fun working on it as riding it....

It's truly addicting, You'll see....

I agree on all counts 100%

I am addicted... It had me at hello... I love that bike already...

I still want another xr100 too... For real...

[mixxer]

Not that way in Baja Hill Climbs no run at bottom/rocks /ruts/ brush/rock steps. 50hp and over 450s.back seat to the Girls bike. If just a power hill just hold wide open yes 450 is King,we have no easy hill climbs here.Im a little ashamed to admit. My other bikes built Wr450s/Cr500/Xr300/Xr440/KTM 200 cant get half way up hill climbs little girlie bike makes.Yes is goes slow at the top but it gets over the top. PTDC0128.JPG

Michigan truly has sand hills that will swallow bikes whole... Several places where people will camp out near the bottom just for the show of people finding out how hungry the long and super steep sand is for bikes... No way to finesse or fake power there... No balls means these are walls .. and that is just that...

I'm sure there are much more monstrous sand hills in other places out west...

Now... Michigan woods... And the thousands of miles of trails... Will guarantee you have only 36inches between you and the trees... You see bark missing everywhere as testimony of riders who had not kept it between the lines... Root bundles.. off camber... Zero run at sand mountains on twisty tree strewn paths.. all the good stuff... CCC trails are the bomb...

I can see the wonder of the 230 on the technical part.. semi trials riding.... But trees and off camber awitchbacks on sandy hills... Basically no run starts at many turns on the way up... Never said I had too much torque there... Plenty have had too little...

[RedMesa]

Fast in the woods...Yes... Nimble in tight spots..Sure.. powermonger... Not a chance...

 

I think you are telling us -- as one who has imbibed deeply of venom and worshipped at the alter of dyno -- to keep perspective on all this modding. But when a man hears "cam" the testosterone flows so people get a little spun up and sometimes dyno charts are posted and even 1/4 mile times are mentioned.

 

But really the difference is, this community of fanatics is focused on the butt-dyno more than the objective dyno. We want that personal feel of throttle response in tough terrain. 

 

I've got my fill of the power Kool-Aide from the ProCom box and my IntelaJet snake oil injector. ("Is it real or is it a placebo?"). My suspension is sorted and Priority One is... Ride the danged motorcycle. Carefully. On trails that are hard. Kind of slowly, really. But with the occasional rush of short-burn acceleration. Twist the hand, drop the IQ, bask in the flood of brain chemicals. And as the trees approach... that was real short. But it was real good.

Edited January 20, 2017 by RedMesa

[mixxer]

I think you are telling us -- as one who has imbibed deeply of venom and worshipped at the alter of dyno -- to keep perspective on all this modding. But when a man hears "cam" the testosterone flows so people get a little spun up and sometimes dyno charts are posted and even 1/4 mile times are mentioned.

But really the difference is, this community of fanatics is focused on the butt-dyno more than the objective dyno. We want that personal feel of throttle response in tough terrain.

I've got my fill of the power Kool-Aide from the ProCom box and my IntelaJet snake oil injector. ("Is it real or is it a placebo?"). My suspension is sorted and Priority One is... Ride the danged motorcycle. Carefully. On trails that are hard. Kind of slowly, really. But with the occasional rush of short-burn acceleration.

Agreed... No argument...

The racers I have built for from woods , to supercross, to arenacross, to flat track ... All demand throttle response that is almost premptive... Timing and control come with response.... Gotta have it or the power is useless...

All my point is that I hear quite a bit of talk as though the 230 can be some sort of alien god of thunder power source... Which is not true... And utterly unrealistic...

That's all Im saying.... It can be the right tool for plenty of situations.... But if people can't realize that it has limitations... I'm thinking they have an exhaust leak in their helmet...

[1gr8bldr]

When I think of 230 torque, I am thinking of being able to climb even though I may be in the wrong gear, not needing to gear down. As if it has no power band. I have wondered and said so here if our excitement  over our bikes might be a little exaggerated.  But I do like mine for what I do. I do however wonder why anyone would build one of these for the road. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by 1gr8bldr

[bajatrailrider]

Michigan truly has sand hills that will swallow bikes whole... Several places where people will camp out near the bottom just for the show of people finding out how hungry the long and super steep sand is for bikes... No way to finesse or fake power there... No balls means these are walls .. and that is just that...

I'm sure there are much more monstrous sand hills in other places out west...

Now... Michigan woods... And the thousands of miles of trails... Will guarantee you have only 36inches between you and the trees... You see bark missing everywhere as testimony of riders who had not kept it between the lines... Root bundles.. off camber... Zero run at sand mountains on twisty tree strewn paths.. all the good stuff... CCC trails are the bomb...

I can see the wonder of the 230 on the technical part.. semi trials riding.... But trees and off camber awitchbacks on sandy hills... Basically no run starts at many turns on the way up... Never said I had too much torque there... Plenty have had too little...

Its Nice to hear your reports of another rider that gets it and Knows. Your so right again in Calif where Im from. 3000ft sand hill climbs. Taking a 230 there would be like a knife in a gun fight. Torque does not get you up a 3000ft sand hill with 4th gear run at bottom. 50HP is a good start. Even in our forest riding in Baja the trees are more then 36in apart. AHH  but the trails are 12in wide,and not good to go off the side.

[mixxer]

YES!!! I am fifty years young and have spent a lot of time on top of many XR100s!

And... I have never read a post where one of us wrote "Horsepower Monster"

I spent a few years on top of a 1983 Honda XL600. Torque? Heck yes!

I spent many years on top of a 1984 Al Baker XR265R. It was a monster but torque? No way.

I had quite a few rides on top of a 1991 Honda XR600. Torque? Heck yes!

I spent some time on top of a WR250F. The engine was awful and as for torque? No way.

I spent some time on top of a 1997 XR250 and 2003 XR250. Torque? Not so much.

I spent some time on top of a 2008 YZ250F. It was a monster but torque? No way.

I spent some time on top of a 2002 BM F650GS. Torque? Pretty good!

I had a few rides on top of a dyno-tuned CVO HD .Torque? Brutal!

I spent much time on top of a dyno-tuned HD. Torque? Crazy!

I currently ride a 1986 Yamaha SRX600. Torque? Heck yes!

My wife rides a Suzuki LS650 single. Torque? Heck yes!

I have spent time on many other bikes but I wanted to choose a wide variety of 4Ts for comparison.

Does a LG-4 305ci 5.0L SBC make a lot of low-speed torque? Compared to a DZ 302ci 5.0L SBC absolutely. Our posts are relative to other similar engines.

You have to realize when we rave about torque we mean right off idle and at very low engine speeds. I have never ridden a bike with such a small engine that made so much torque. I would have to guess a Powroll 218 with TQ cam is very similar and Chuck really likes his.

Obviously all the new liquid-cooled modern 4Ts make big torque but when and where? The WR250F and YZ250F make good numbers on a dyno but are all but useless and worthless in the woods. We tried time and time again to get the YZ250F around our two-mile closed-loop enduro track but in the end we just gave up. It could not keep a CRF230 in sight. A lot of that had to do with the MX chassis and gearbox but most of it was due to the torqueless 2T-like engine. The engine reminded me a lot of the old Al Baker engine but the old Al Baker bikes had a proper chassis for woods work.

I guess I will reciprocate the question and ask you what other bikes you have ridden with similar displacement that make low-speed torque similar to the CRF230?

Please let's not compare liquid-cooled 450s and air-cooled 600s to the tiny 230. If we're going to do that then we might as well compare the 450s and 600s to HDs.

My buddy's dyno-tuned CVO HD : General_000467.jpg 100 lb-ft at 2,200 RPM

Frank Nye stock and 247: 230vs 250torque.jpg

WR250F and CRF250X: 250torque.jpg

Have a really close look at the TQ of the CRF230 versus the newer 250s. The 230 makes a lot of TQ at very low engine speeds.

Oh... Our Kool-Aid comes from great builders/racers/tuners/winners like Frank Nye, Mike Coe, Pete Fisher, and Terry Miller!

Don't know where those lame 250 torque graphs come from...

But they aren't even close to what those 250s really do...

You can't show a full mod 230 compared to choked up 250 graphs...

The last 2 250 setups I had ran over 22ft lbs of torque and made 40hp... They were over 30hp for a band wider than imaginable.. not a good comparison...

The 450 class can run over 40ft lbs with a few mods...

That's why 16 can be fun... But it doesn't flatten your eyes in their sockets...

My street bike is a Yamaha raider... I think it's starter has more torque than my 230 lol

That's all I'm saying... Be real about the power levels... Nobody says it isn't fun... That's why I bought one...

I will own another Honda 100 too.. love em

[mixxer]

Can't find any finished runs with 43.5mm FCR taperbored carb..

But this was my old 07 CRF250R that I set up for woods running as a 270..

The yamaha bore kits make for 290cc

And the 5 valve can make silly torque if HVP ported properly..

That's why I'm saying you can't go with all mods on a big bore stroker full mod 230 and compare to choked up stock Enduro versions... It takes less to get the 250s to this level... And they are no joke.. when done right

[VortecCPI]

Don't know where those lame 250 torque graphs come from...

But they aren't even close to what those 250s really do...

You can't show a full mod 230 compared to choked up 250 graphs...

The last 2 250 setups I had ran over 22ft lbs of torque and made 40hp... They were over 30hp for a band wider than imaginable.. not a good comparison...

The 450 class can run over 40ft lbs with a few mods...

That's why 16 can be fun... But it doesn't flatten your eyes in their sockets...

My street bike is a Yamaha raider... I think it's starter has more torque than my 230 lol

That's all I'm saying... Be real about the power levels... Nobody says it isn't fun... That's why I bought one...

I will own another Honda 100 too.. love em

 

The source is here:  http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2005/04/article/2005-crf250x-vs-wr250f-performance  It was simply the first site that came up on Google.

 

Who in this forum ever wrote here that a CRF230 will "...flatten your eyes in their sockets..."?  I think you have been working far too hard on your inferences from our comments.  Can you post quotes of where were were not being "...real about the power levels..."?

 

Again you are comparing a four-decade-old air-cooled two-valve platform to brand-new 450cc liquid-cooled engines.  Why?  I posted the dyno graph of the WR250F BECAUSE I HAD ONE and I hated it because it made no TQ down low.  It felt EXACTLY like that dyno chart.  All but worthless at the bottom.

I have ridden a lot of air-cooled two-valve and four-valve bikes and I will continue to say the little 223cc engine makes gobs of torque down low for such a tiny engine, even with the crappy stock cam and piston.  My guess is Frank Nye, Mike Coe, Pete Fisher, and Terry Miller would likely agree with that statement.

 

Nobody in here has ever written that it is some sort of super-spectacular pinnacle of TQ generation.  All we have ever written is that it is VERY impressive given what it is, which as a very old, very simple, very durable, and very reliable design.

If we want to get into an argument about what real TQ is then let's just skip right to Boss Hoss and be done with it already:  https://www.bosshoss.com

 

 

I wonder if I can get a 572ci BBC in my chassis?

 

And let's not forget the original: 

Edited January 21, 2017 by VortecCPI

[mixxer]

When I think of 230 torque, I am thinking of being able to climb even though I may be in the wrong gear, not needing to gear down. As if it has no power band. I have wondered and said so here if our excitement over our bikes might be a little exaggerated. But I do like mine for what I do. I do however wonder why anyone would build one of these for the road.

I love the 230 for the same reasons... I know it will be a full on hoot to ride... And there are plenty of places where the big power bikes are actually not an advantage, but are a deficit...

[VortecCPI]

I love the 230 for the same reasons... I know it will be a full on hoot to ride... And there are plenty of places where the big power bikes are actually not an advantage, but are a deficit...

 

Especially with respect to height and wheelbase.  While the CRF230 is not light by any measure it rides "light" and is really easy to manage because the CG is so low and the chassis is so small.  Great for slow short tight and awful for fast long open.  Always a compromise...

Edited January 21, 2017 by VortecCPI

[adnohguy]

Torque beast?

[VortecCPI]

📎IMG_1484957510.601286.jpg

Torque beast?

 

What the???  I just posted that in the other thread above!  Great minds think alike crave torque!

Edited January 21, 2017 by VortecCPI

[mixxer]

Its Nice to hear your reports of another rider that gets it and Knows. Your so right again in Calif where Im from. 3000ft sand hill climbs. Taking a 230 there would be like a knife in a gun fight. Torque does not get you up a 3000ft sand hill with 4th gear run at bottom. 50HP is a good start. Even in our forest riding in Baja the trees are more then 36in apart. AHH but the trails are 12in wide,and not good to go off the side.

Straight up... That's all I'm saying..

I love the 230 for exactly what it is... Fun and more potential fun.. and not temperamental... More riding / less wrenching...

Now.. about the 12 inch wide trails you ride on... Like a wheeled mountain goat... I lived in Washington state for 2 years.. and those kind of trails scare the sh!t out of me... Saw a friend of mine nearly slide out to his death..

I'm not a fan of hitting trees.. they don't budge, you do all the budging.. but I am worlds less a fan of falling off a cliff...

Before our first mountain ride there, we were at a bike shop and asked a local rider how the trails were ... He said... "Oh , I don't know, how do you feel about.... Exposure?!?"

Lol... I soon found out what he meant...

[adnohguy]

12 xr200r's

Torque Beast?

[mixxer]

The source is here: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2005/04/article/2005-crf250x-vs-wr250f-performance It was simply the first site that came up on Google.

Who in this forum ever wrote here that a CRF230 will "...flatten your eyes in their sockets..."? I think you have been working far too hard on your inferences from our comments. Can you post quotes of where were were not being "...real about the power levels..."?

Again you are comparing a four-decade-old air-cooled two-valve platform to brand-new 450cc liquid-cooled engines. Why? I posted the dyno graph of the WR250F BECAUSE I HAD ONE and I hated it because it made no TQ down low. It felt EXACTLY like that dyno chart. All but worthless at the bottom.

I have ridden a lot of air-cooled two-valve and four-valve bikes and I will continue to say the little 223cc engine makes gobs of torque down low for such a tiny engine, even with the crappy stock cam and piston. My guess is Frank Nye, Mike Coe, Pete Fisher, and Terry Miller would likely agree with that statement.

Nobody in here has ever written that it is some sort of super-spectacular pinnacle of TQ generation. All we have ever written is that it is VERY impressive given what it is, which as a very old, very simple, very durable, and very reliable design.

If we want to get into an argument about what real TQ is then let's just skip right to Boss Hoss and be done with it already:

You need to take a serious chill pill...

I guarantee I personally can make your wr250 an absolute torque god ...

I do it all the time... For people all over the world... I'm not running venom anymore because medical physics is more secure to raise 4 kids with...But there is never a time I'm not building some engine for a customer... A rotax powered Aprilia superbike last time.. 2 arenacrossers right now...

It also doesn't matter to me how many engine builders you wave in my face.. they are kindred to me...

Seriously take a moment and look at the dyno graph I posted of my old 250... The graph is not atypical of well setup 250s...And it had a heavy flywheel too... It basically comes in at more torque than a built 230..And then runs away from it for the next 8 freaking thousand rpm or so... It gives up nothing at any point.. and a Yamaha can be more powerful yet..

All I wanted to do is get some perspective here ... Not looking to see ridiculous v8s stuffed into 2 wheel frames..

Some people are being real about the 230 and some are wigging out...

Can't have a conversation unless people aren't wigging out...