Red-line for the 500 RR-S?

[FORMA MOTO]

1 minute ago, ccullins said:

Yeah, bikes had neutral indicators even before EFI and would hit the rev limter at a lower rpm while in neutral. 

I wouldn't worry about the valve train if you bounce off the rev limiter a few times. Our 350 gets revved out pretty hard all the time and I have yet to find a valve out of adjustment. IMO Beta internals are about the most reliable out there?. I see what others go through on their race bikes and we just don't have those issues.  

The the tech I talked to a BETA USA told me they have never had a fuel pump failure or a valve train failure in a production motor since 2010.

It's like an Italian Yamaha....

[Ben500RR-S]

Since none of us know what the actual redline is, the next question is, what do you have your tachometer set at for the maximum rpm?  I had it at 8,000 and bumped it up to 10,000.  

[hawaiidirtrider]

On 3/22/2017 at 5:36 PM, Johnny Depp said:

the 2014 520(498) RS info from http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2014-open-class-dual-sport-smackdown-beta-520-rs-vs-ktm-500-exc

"its power character is smoother overall, with an extremely tractable low-end pull that transitions seamlessly through a potent midrange before gently signing off near the Beta ’s 9100-rpm rev limiter. "

The engine was redesigned in 2015 downsized to a 480 (478) and fuel injection added in '16 so things may have changed a bit, but I don't think it will crack 10k.

In the real world what it needs (as well as lots of other bikes) is a big shift light when the torque signs off. My experience is a few vivid memories of the very few times I ever let the big dog eat (in the dirt), and it will leave a stamp on your mind forever. You run out of room to get it shut down very quickly. The engine feels like a beginner bike (cheater) with incredibly forgiving power under 4-5k as long as you keep it a gear high and gear it tall. Once you cross the threshold of mid rpm with the throttle pinned make sure your insurance is paid up and you are wearing some good safety gear, because it goes into warp drive and will pull a bike length on race 450's in a jiffy. It's like the turbo's kick in and it is not for the timid. On the street there is a lot more room, and that kind of power isn't so freaky. On the dirt, just stay away from it and shift.

 

This isn't it? Why would you want to rev it to the moon? The benefit of a big bore is you don't have to and it doesn't work best on top..and a motor lasts longer..and it's easier to ride..and you are already getting to mach speeds quite quickly...It's put it a higher gear and go. I p ersonally would not be looking to be on top with the revs.. maybe for very short sections and probably not even a few seconds.. before going to a higher gear.. idk. It's just how I ride my 525 and it's just a better way to ride for me. I feel like I'm fighting the bike and trying to ride my big bore like a 125 if I'm winding it out..my 525 is next.. the motor is so quiet it's hard to hear.. gotta turn up the volume its so quiet..for another example.. but idk anyone can ride their bike whatever way feels best to them. ..It just seems weird to me as I don't rev with bigger.. more with teh 125 150 200 level bikes..

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[Go_outside]

2 pages and no body answered the op's question.

[Ben500RR-S]

I patiently wait.  

[highmarker]

Don't beat on it, don't baby it, just ride it like you bought it for.

[Go_outside]

Mostly I want to know how far from red-line I am while cruising on the freeway. If it is engineered to handle 10k then I am comfortable passing cars at 80mph (~7.5krpm) with 13/48 gearing and easing back to 65-70 for the long haul. I love that I can keep my 13T sprocket and keep up with traffic on the freeway for 30 minutes at a time.

I found a dyno curve for the 2017 480RR showing that it peaked between 8 and 9k rpm and they ran it to 9.7K rpm,  but that is as close as I can get.

[FORMA MOTO]

2 hours ago, Ben500RR-S said:

I patiently wait.  

We patiently wait for what you mean by 'redline' ?   Highest possible rpm? Safest highest possible RPM? Point where more rpms yeild no more power ?  A number given out by the manufactuer ?

Can you tell me what the 'redline' is for a 2005 CRF450X?   A 2016 WR450F?

If you look in those forums there have been others asking the same question for years.......but that still doesn't answer any question, if it is not defined clearly....

That's because there is no such thing.  Dirt bikes manufactuers are not publishing such a spec. It's just not needed. 

You have a rev limiter which is usually kicks in about 1000+ rpms after the useable power is long gone, and you are only into 'over-rev' territory.

Is that the red line, when it won't go any higher?  To me, no way. Running the motor past the peak power is how your wear out a valve train, especially if it's already got a lot of hours. Stay in the powerband, which is defined by your butt on the seat..... not a tach.

There is no possible way you can read a tach when riding offroad anyway, so what good is this information ?

You shift when you want, or when the power drops off. That is the answer.

Edited November 17, 2018 by KRAYNIAL

[hawaiidirtrider]

3 hours ago, Go_outside said:

Mostly I want to know how far from red-line I am while cruising on the freeway. If it is engineered to handle 10k then I am comfortable passing cars at 80mph (~7.5krpm) with 13/48 gearing and easing back to 65-70 for the long haul. I love that I can keep my 13T sprocket and keep up with traffic on the freeway for 30 minutes at a time.

I found a dyno curve for the 2017 480RR showing that it peaked between 8 and 9k rpm and they ran it to 9.7K rpm,  but that is as close as I can get.

Just gear your bike tall and ride far away lower rpm from any perceived redline. We all can figure out cruising speed with not straining the motor. It’s not like we are riding 125’s that can’t handle a load. To me it’s more adapting to how low I can gear the bike to be able to still ride in the trails and still ride at an acceptable speed on the road. That’s more related to the type of trails one is riding too. 

[Go_outside]

Is this your first internal combustion engine?

“Red-line” when referring to engine rpm, has historically been defined as the safest engine speed recommended by the manufacturer. 

I thought my post made it pretty clear that this is what i was asking. If it didnt i apologize.

This is my first modern dirt bike. Maybe theses engines are designed to stop making power before they overwhelm the valve springs and the strength of the reciprocating components. But this would be the first performance engine i have owned, and i have owned many, that runs out of wind long enough before red-line as for it to be unimportant. 

I do hope you are right though, that would make it much harder to break.

 

 

[hawaiidirtrider]

1 hour ago, Go_outside said:

Is this your first internal combustion engine?

“Red-line” when referring to engine rpm, has historically been defined as the safest engine speed recommended by the manufacturer. 

I thought my post made it pretty clear that this is what i was asking. If it didnt i apologize.

This is my first modern dirt bike. Maybe theses engines are designed to stop making power before they overwhelm the valve springs and the strength of the reciprocating components. But this would be the first performance engine i have owned, and i have owned many, that runs out of wind long enough before red-line as for it to be unimportant. 

I do hope you are right though, that would make it much harder to break.

 

 

Kraynial explains it pretty well above. The reality is if racing and riding  a big bore guys are rarely near a “redline” and when you do it’s not for long. That’s an ineffective approach to riding. That’s more how you ride a small bore bike because you have to wring power in where the power is. Big bores have power all over but more low to midYou fight the bike in trying to ride anywhere near the redline. You shortshift big bores and camp out in the meat of the torque and for not long because you don’t wind out big bores. You shift up faster . You won’t ride faster riding it like a 125. . It’s low to mid throttle and sometimes a bit more and then you should have shift already and you will be riding at mach speed depending how you gear the bike. If you are concerned about riding on the road it’s still gear up as much as you can and still be able to ride the speed of the slowest trails you may ride.  Have you ridden and raced 2 and 4 stroke big bores or ridden them for any length of time? You said you owned a bunch of bikes.. Really riding to a “redline “ and staying close to that for a longer length of time is a bad strategy for going fast for a long time and it’s not good for the motor. It’s a recipe for arm pump too. I’ve been riding and racing since 1966. Similar to a bunch of vet riders here in these threads.  Maybe you should just gear your bike taller. I think my 525 RS was stock at something like 15 - 45. 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by hawaiidirtrider
N

[FORMA MOTO]

8 hours ago, Go_outside said:

Is this your first internal combustion engine?

“Red-line” when referring to engine rpm, has historically been defined as the safest engine speed recommended by the manufacturer. 

I thought my post made it pretty clear that this is what i was asking. If it didnt i apologize.

This is my first modern dirt bike. Maybe theses engines are designed to stop making power before they overwhelm the valve springs and the strength of the reciprocating components. But this would be the first performance engine i have owned, and i have owned many, that runs out of wind long enough before red-line as for it to be unimportant. 

I do hope you are right though, that would make it much harder to break.

 

 

That makes no sense. The safest engine speed would be 0 rpms. 

 

[Beta300REcat]

13 hours ago, Ben500RR-S said:

I patiently wait.  

Merry Christmas!

On 3/22/2017 at 8:36 PM, Johnny Depp said:

the 2014 520(498) RS info from http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2014-open-class-dual-sport-smackdown-beta-520-rs-vs-ktm-500-exc

"its power character is smoother overall, with an extremely tractable low-end pull that transitions seamlessly through a potent midrange before gently signing off near the Beta’s 9100-rpm rev limiter. "

The engine was redesigned in 2015 downsized to a 480 (478) and fuel injection added in '16 so things may have changed a bit, but I don't think it will crack 10k.

The DRZE with it's 62mm stroke and 90mm bore signs off at 10k, so I'd bet your right.

[timmyp8823]

That makes no sense. The safest engine speed would be 0 rpms. 
 

Is it really that hard to figure out what he is talking about? Go get in your car and look at the tachometer. Where the numbers start having a red background of some sort is the redline he is asking about. If the 500 rrs had an analog tach,where would the red section start?

[Go_outside]

4 hours ago, KRAYNIAL said:

That makes no sense. The safest engine speed would be 0 rpms. 

 

Kid Krandall,

Yes, “safest” wasnt the right word. 

Either you are being difficult beacause you are ignorant of the concept of red-line or because you are an a-hole. Either way your post is unappreciated. People are here for helpful advice and good conversation. Your post was neither. 

Hawaii,

Yes, I have ridden and raced bigbore bikes. They pulled straight up to red-line and continued to make power past it.

Here is the timeline for vehicle development.

People got sick of over reving and blowing up their engines so they put on tachometers. 

Then they added bright shift lights. 

Then they added rev limiters. 

I have owned and ridden over 20 motorcycles and 10 cars, only a few low performance engines didnt pull past redline. My crf230f was one until i improved the engine and carb. Now it pulls past redline also. My KLR never did even after a 685 kit, but man did it have off idle torque.  My S1000R absolutely does! CR500 did too. Xr100 not so much, crf150r oh yeah. F11 yup, stretched a con rod. GT550 yup. GT380 yup. RD400 omg yes. Gsxr600 yup. Zx6’s yup. VFR800 maybe. Zx10 yup. ZR550 not so much. Etc...

I typically ride as you describe, staying in the meat of the mid torque. I agree that it is the most satisfying, especially as i mellow with midage. But, sometimes, like when drag racing on a straight, like last night, i will run it up until it stops making power or i hit red-line.  Knowing that the bike stops making power before the engine is damaged is helpful. Thank you. 

[slotracer577]

4000-4200 fpm is a safe mean piston speed for long term use. 5000 for race use with frequent rebuilds. To calculate, take 4200/2/stroke in feet.

 

That will give an idea of what the redline should be.

[FORMA MOTO]

Show me the word 'redline' in any dirtbike specs.

Show me any words to the effect of safest, max, peak, without the mention of  rpm limiters of some sort.

It doesn't exist.

The PURPOSE of a redline is to let you know you are in over-rev, past the safe constant rpm useage range, WHEN YOU CAN'T FEEL OR HEAR IT. 

Tarmac racers would use them when it was impossible to hear the rpm of the motor, so the dial gauge was there to assist them, so they would not float a valve. That is pretty much not needed anymore in conventional racing where virtually every single bike has a rev limiter.

Show me virtually any offroad motorcycle racer using a tach, would you please ?  Right, there isn't one, because you can feel the power band and shift accordingly. 

Dakar might be the exception, due to the ultra-high performance motors possibly not have rev-limiters, and quieter exhaust requirements. They probably have tachs so they can 'see' what they can't hear

Auto racing is DEPENDENT on tachometers, as the motors are pushed waaaay past normal limits/rpms, and they need to know exactly where the limit is.

We don't need to know that because all of your powerbands end waaaay before the limit of the rpms, or the rev limiter.

 

 

 

[hawaiidirtrider]

? ? 

Ok the longer this goes on the more I can’t believe this is even a thread.?

 

[hawaiidirtrider]

3 minutes ago, KRAYNIAL said:

Show me the word 'redline' in any dirtbike specs.

Show me any words to the effect of safest, max, peak, without the mention of  rpm limiters of some sort.

It doesn't exist.

The PURPOSE of a redline is to let you know you are in over-rev, past the safe constant rpm useage range, WHEN YOU CAN'T FEEL OR HEAR IT. 

Tarmac racers would use them when it was impossible to hear the rpm of the motor, so the dial gauge was there to assist them, so they would not float a valve. That is pretty much not needed anymore in conventional racing where virtually every single bike has a rev limiter.

Show me virtually any offroad motorcycle racer using a tach, would you please ?  Right, there isn't one, because you can feel the power band and shift accordingly. 

Dakar might be the exception, due to the ultra-high performance motors possibly not have rev-limiters, and quieter exhaust requirements. They probably have tachs so they can 'see' what they can't hear

Auto racing is DEPENDENT on tachometers, as the motors are pushed waaaay past normal limits/rpms, and they need to know exactly where the limit is.

We don't need to know that because all of your powerbands end waaaay before the limit of the rpms, or the rev limiter.

 

 

 

It’s weird that this has to be explained.  No offense to whoever but I’ve never heard of a redline question relating to a dirtbike ever. 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by hawaiidirtrider

[firffighter]

19 hours ago, Go_outside said:

Mostly I want to know how far from red-line I am while cruising on the freeway

I will attempt to add to the conversation without insulting, but no guarantees ?

I noticed you posted about your suspension being terrible as well on the Beta site . 

My impression is that you have previously been riding low performance bikes manufacturered with the intent of cruising along open roads and light trails. 

You purchased the Beta. It's the opposite of what you've been riding. The Beta and KTM factory street legal bikes are high performance race bikes with street legal gear. The are intended for fast paced off road ridng with the ability to do light road work. 

If I were to take a CRF230l or KLR and ride it outside it's intended purpose, like the aggressive off road woods ridng the Beta is intended for, I'd be sorely disappointed. Those bikes can't handle the type of riding the Beta thrives in. 

Conversely, taking the Beta and using outside it's intended purpose, like 80mph on the freeway, it'll disappoint because it's not built for this type of longterm use. 

In each scenario are these bikes capable of being used not as intended.....yes, but there are a miriad of issues that will arise being used in this manner. 

That's not to say the Beta 500 isn't capable of what you're using it for, but you're going to face some issues. 

The chassis, suspension, motor, and transmission are built for hard, aggressive, fast paced off road ridng.  You can remedy some of this by changing gearing, softening the suspension, balancing wheels, adding more road orientated tires, etc. But, ultimately, you're masking the intended purpose. 

I bring this up, only to point out, high performance off road dirt bikes don't have redline specs like an automobile or street bike. Others have stated it differently, but the bottom line is the Beta 500 isn't a street bike. 

Hope this helps clarify things a bit. Not trying to stir the pot. Some of the frustrations are simply going to come about with using the Beta outside area of manufactured purpose.