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Kickstarter slipping

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I have the dreaded slipping kickstarter happening for a while now, looking at a rebuild this next winter. What parts normally wear on these, is it just the two parts of the ratcheting mechanism?

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7 hours ago, wazzabie said:

Did you find an answer?

Yes apparently i need to replace the one replaceable part on the ratchet, the second part is obsolete now... there is also a way to change it to a later kickstart gear but i couldn't find a good writeup on that.

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The ratchet and mating gear, both inside the center case. Starting technique can reduce wear and prolong ratchet life. Always use light pressure on the kicker while engaging the ratchet, then kick.  If you jab at the kicker you will wear the ratchet.

Later kick starter gears will only fix the gear problem and won't fix the ratchet issues.  And interesting is both problems are really a user problem, and we usually don't know how prior owners treated the engine.  Keep the compression release and you won't have gear problems. I've never had starting gear problems on the early or late engines. Change your starting technique and you can avoid, and/or, prolong the need to replace the ratchet. 

I and others have installed the late gears in the early cases, for me it was a preventive measure on a high compression stroker engine. The challenge is the later cases were changed to accommodate the larger gears.

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How would I know if it is a gear problem or ratchet issue?   How involved is it to replace and fix?  Do I have to remove the engine from the frame?

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9 hours ago, wazzabie said:

How would I know if it is a gear problem or ratchet issue?   How involved is it to replace and fix?  Do I have to remove the engine from the frame?

You have to pull the engine from the frame, and tear the engine apart. 

You have to pull the top end off, and then split the cases, which is a pretty involved process. I know there's more to it, just not gonna type up the whole process. 

As Chuck stated, the kicker assembly is sandwiched between the 2 crank case halves. 

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I watched some videos online on removing the engine, pulling the top end and then splitting the case.  This will be a lot of work.  I can start it occasionally but I hear grinding in the engine when it kicks at time.  Maybe I should just keep starting it this way. 

I think the stripped part is 2 and 3 in the pic below.  If I understand correctly to remove part 2 and 3 I have to split the case.

 

KK04E1301.gif

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  That is correct. And Chuck is right on the money. Mine is also in need of replacement now. 25 years of abuse (especially the kids learning to, and riding it). I'm gonna do a bunch of other stuff while I've got it apart.

Edited by Doogee57
add info

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4 hours ago, Doogee57 said:

  That is correct. And Chuck is right on the money. Mine is also in need of replacement now. 25 years of abuse (especially the kids learning to, and riding it). I'm gonna do a bunch of other stuff while I've got it apart.

What else are you planning on doing?

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  Stroker, maybe the head, cam, maybe big bore, change the primary gearing to the 230's. I've got a bunch if other post here and there mentioning the various mods. Kind of putting together a "kit". And Greenhuman, by back cut do you mean steepening the angle of each of the ratchet teeth? Kinda like undercutting a transmission?

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12 hours ago, greenhuman said:

Back cut 2 and 3 and you will never experience slippage again.

 

 

With the back cut solution wouldn't this cause to much force on one or two teeth which then could chip and break?  For the back cut is the cut done by hand or machine?

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1 hour ago, Doogee57 said:

  Stroker, maybe the head, cam, maybe big bore, change the primary gearing to the 230's. I've got a bunch if other post here and there mentioning the various mods. Kind of putting together a "kit". And Greenhuman, by back cut do you mean steepening the angle of each of the ratchet teeth? Kinda like undercutting a transmission?

 

I'm a newbie.  This is my first dirt bike.  I intend for it to be used as a trail bike.  I want it to run like a mule, slow with lots of torque and not have it stall going up steep hills.  I do not want to go fast on it.  

What is the advantage to change the primary gearing to 230s?  

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   Honda changed the primary ratio to reduce the torque going thru the trans and assure reliability. I've had to replace 2nd (or was it 3rd) gear due to teeth breaking. But I've had my XR for 25+ years and flogged it pretty hard, MX and everything. I'm hopping this one up, sooo. As far as the XR for a trail bike? Keep good fresh oil in them and they're almost indestructible. A fantastic woods bike.

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10 hours ago, wazzabie said:

 

With the back cut solution wouldn't this cause to much force on one or two teeth which then could chip and break?  For the back cut is the cut done by hand or machine?

Never been a problem for the last 28 years. I do this as a routine with all my 200 based engines way up to 280cc ATC 200X engines with no decomp options. Never ever had a slippage or breakage problem. The back cutting is done by hand with a side grinder with a thin cutting disc.

IMG_0084.JPG

IMG_0085.JPG

Edited by greenhuman
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5 hours ago, greenhuman said:

Never been a problem for the last 28 years. I do this as a routine with all my 200 based engines way up to 280cc ATC 200X engines with no decomp options. Never ever had a slippage or breakage problem. The back cutting is done by hand with a side grinder with a thin cutting disc.

    Hey Greenhuman, do you reckon you could salvage/save a ratchet pair that was already worn by using your technique? (and thanks for the pics. makes it crystal clear)

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17 hours ago, wazzabie said:

 

I'm a newbie.  This is my first dirt bike.  I intend for it to be used as a trail bike.  I want it to run like a mule, slow with lots of torque and not have it stall going up steep hills.  I do not want to go fast on it.  

What is the advantage to change the primary gearing to 230s?  

For "no stall" I suggest a CRF230F engine because of its low compression ratio, mild cam, and heavy flywheels. Next would be a stroked TLR200 crank assembly and alternator with a XR200 top end.  

Primary gearing is between the crank and clutch, reducing the ratio reduces torque to the clutch and transmission. But then requires a slightly higher gearing ratio to the rear wheel; one less countershaft tooth is close to the change from using a 230 primary ratio on a XR.

Edited by Chuck.
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2 hours ago, Chuck. said:

For "no stall" I suggest a CRF230F engine because of its low compression ratio, mild cam, and heavy flywheels. Next would be a stroked TLR200 crank assembly and alternator with a XR200 top end.  

Primary gearing is between the crank and clutch, reducing the ratio reduces torque to the clutch and transmission. But then requires a slightly higher gearing ratio to the rear wheel; one less countershaft tooth is close to the change from using a 230 primary ratio on a XR.

Would a CRF230F engine be a direct bolt in into a xr200?

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