Bedunjgi

X-Trainer Capacitor/Diode Failure

23 posts in this topic

I am moving this here from the facebook groups since its buried & facebook is difficult to search;

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I found this while changing the rear fender & lubing the electrical while I did. I had cut off the shrink tube & checked it quickly & thought it was OK but the positive wire was corroded & broke off while reassembling. Replaced it with 4500 MF Capacitor I had on hand. This bike was prepped when new by me, washed with non corrosive simple green HD & lubed after every wash.

I did some research & checked the Beta wiring diagrams. It seems that motorcycles have either a battery or a capacitor but not both. There may be exceptions. The Betas with batteries & starter motors prior to oil injection did not have a separate capacitor (Except in the C(Capacitor)DI for spark). The first model I see that has both is the 2015 XT. My guess is to protect the sensitive oil injection circuitry. Have a look at the three attached drawings that are edits of the XT Wiring Diagrams. I tried to keep them simple & they were made for me to try to better understand whats going on but I decided to share them. The top component to the right of the starter motor is the fuse & the lower component is the starter motor relay that is activated by the starter button. In 2016 the XT also recieved a diode group, the oil pump controller was put inside the ECU (Different harness) & it seems that the starter switch was rewired to be fused (2015 stater button seems to be unfused). The diode group seems to keep the voltage flowing only to the battery for charging except for when the starter motor is active. The rest of the bikes regulated power is directly from the Regulator/Rectifier (Headlight etc is unregulated?) On my 2015 the turn signals, horn & fan work with the motor off from battery power. My guess is that on bikes with the diode group, nothing functions with the motor off except the starter switch. The capacitor seems to serve a more important function with the 2016 & on system? 2017 recieved a different speedometer & wiring, a Diagnostic Connector to the ECU & the TPS & ECU seem to be grounded differently. Thats all for now. Please feel free to add to this or ask questions.
 

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/BetaXTrainer/permalink/1291346444289632/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/644287075705766/permalink/818720184929120/?hc_location=ufi

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Interesting and I've wondered about this.  I have a 2016 250RR.  Originally, the 2016 RR has no power from the battery other than for the starter.  Since I was having trouble with the dashboard meter watch battery dying, I wired the battery to the bike positive so that the dashboard meter, flashers, horn, etc. are powered from the battery instead of only the alternator.

It seems like the battery ought to be used to dampen voltage spikes instead of a capacitor with questionable corrosion protection.  That's what I ended up with even though I was fixing a different problem.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, bryanaverill said:

Interesting and I've wondered about this.  I have a 2016 250RR.  Originally, the 2016 RR has no power from the battery other than for the starter.  Since I was having trouble with the dashboard meter watch battery dying, I wired the battery to the bike positive so that the dashboard meter, flashers, horn, etc. are powered from the battery instead of only the alternator.

It seems like the battery ought to be used to dampen voltage spikes instead of a capacitor with questionable corrosion protection.  That's what I ended up with even though I was fixing a different problem.

These are the drawings of a madman! :lol:  I have been using them to better understand so I figured I would post them. There are a few mistakes but I think they are helpful. I am going to post another of the locations of all the connectors & hopefully the soldered connections in the loom after I work on the bike in the next few days to replace my stator & /or RR. Your 2016 has the Diode Group which isolates the battery from being drained but it allows voltage to charge the battery while the stator is functioning so I assume it is acting as you stated to; "dampen voltage spikes". I am starting to wonder if the corrosion isn't just from water & may also be from galvanic/electrolysis corrosion due to a fault in the design &/or poor grounds &/or components failing but I am not smart enough to figure it out. I posted the drawings here but I also have a thread started on facebook & another here; 

 

 

Edited by Bedunjgi

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Prime example of why the OI can't be relied on. That cap should be potted as an assembly if they must use it.

The battery charge ckt is powered from a 20W winding. AC side isolated and DC side of the rect/reg grounded to the frame. The high output winding is just half wave rectified and filtered with this cap. This is necessary to use the same ground reference. If it were full wave the DC output gnd would have to be isolated, or the AC side isolated by floating the gnd in the stator. They use this crappy ckt to keep things simple and cheap, and use a std stator configuration. Ideally, it should all be DC through a multi phase rect/reg, which would be a much better supply for the OI pump.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, GP said:

Prime example of why the OI can't be relied on. That cap should be potted as an assembly if they must use it.

The battery charge ckt is powered from a 20W winding. AC side isolated and DC side of the rect/reg grounded to the frame. The high output winding is just half wave rectified and filtered with this cap. This is necessary to use the same ground reference. If it were full wave the DC output gnd would have to be isolated, or the AC side isolated by floating the gnd in the stator. They use this crappy ckt to keep things simple and cheap, and use a std stator configuration. Ideally, it should all be DC through a multi phase rect/reg, which would be a much better supply for the OI pump.

Thank you for your info. I had a long day so I need to keep this short & also need some time to understand what you wrote but I will say this; The more I look at these schematics & spend time figuring out whats going on with my otherwise fantastic motorcycle, the word "Kludge" keeps rattling around in my mind.

 

Edited by Bedunjgi
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Keep in mind this is a production line product, uses a standard Kokusan 2K-4 stator, and has to be Euro legal.  All this at a price and weight point, with tight packaging requirements.  Tihis is not a Beta thing alone, any Euro legal bike with the same ignition will have a very similar setup and construction.  Sure they could do better in a few key spots, but if it was made to a mil spec you would pay $$ for it.  The way to approach this is to just strip off what you don't absolutely need and bulletproof the rest.  Don't expect all the stuff like the computer, switches, etc to keep working, because it won't in a dirtbike environment without mods and constant maintenance.   This has been proven.  In Hawaii especially important. 

What island?  I leave Sun for the islands, can't wait.

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3 hours ago, GP said:

Keep in mind this is a production line product, uses a standard Kokusan 2K-4 stator, and has to be Euro legal.  All this at a price and weight point, with tight packaging requirements.  Tihis is not a Beta thing alone, any Euro legal bike with the same ignition will have a very similar setup and construction.  Sure they could do better in a few key spots, but if it was made to a mil spec you would pay $$ for it.  The way to approach this is to just strip off what you don't absolutely need and bulletproof the rest.  Don't expect all the stuff like the computer, switches, etc to keep working, because it won't in a dirtbike environment without mods and constant maintenance.   This has been proven.  In Hawaii especially important. 

What island?  I leave Sun for the islands, can't wait.

OK, then all the Euro bike electrical systems are Kludges LOL! Its frustrating because these often aren't simple problems to troubleshoot or fix & can leave you stranded not knowing what to do when stalled far away from civilization while tearing apart the wire loom near the steering stem because you saw a picture of the poorly fabricated grounds on Thumpertalk. There is very little info available & I am actually spending time on ktmtalk trying to glean info. FYI, I just added the last two drawings to this old thread here because I already had posted the others but this is the discussion I started recently (Below; "Electrical Question") and another on facebook. So its a 2k-4? Not a 2K-3? Why is there so little info available on these stators (I am replacing mine today and spent much time researching)? Is it really 200 watts? Oahu. Where are you vacationing?

 

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1 minute ago, Bedunjgi said:

OK, then all the Euro bike electrical systems are Kludges LOL! Its frustrating because these often aren't simple problems to troubleshoot or fix & can leave you stranded not knowing what to do when stalled far away from civilization while tearing apart the wire loom near the steering stem because you saw a picture of the poorly fabricated grounds on Thumpertalk. There is very little info available & I am actually spending time on ktmtalk trying to glean info. FYI, I just added the last two drawings to this old thread here because I already had posted the others but this is the discussion I started recently (Below; "Electrical Question") and another on facebook. So its a 2k-4? Not a 2K-3? Why is there so little info available on these stators (I am replacing mine today and spent much time researching)? Is it really 200 watts? Oahu. Where are you vacationing?

 

Its a 2K-4, which is basically the same as a 2K-3 but the flywheel is inverted, stator mounted to the cover.  Two windings, 60 deg phase shift.  Wht/gnd  is 20W, Yell/gnd is about 70W.  This is the same basic configuration used on many bikes since the '90s.  The carb 4strokes use the same stator, as well as any estart KTM 2stroke and the old RFS 4strokes.  In estart bikes the 20W winding is used for the battery charge ckt, thats it.  70W powers lights direct, and if any DC is needed its half wave through a diode.  Beta uses the battery side for the horn too, which shorts easy and blows the fuse, killing your estart.  If you spend a lot of time in the woods far from help keep the bike simple.  Waterproof what you don't strip off.  The Sherco and Beta 4strokes (??) have higher output DC systems, around 200W, but they are EFI or electric PV (Sherco 2stroke).  Not sure what stator they use.

Oahu is my last stop, looking to rent a bike for a ride, waiting to hear back from a guy if he has gear as well. 

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3 minutes ago, GP said:

Its a 2K-4, which is basically the same as a 2K-3 but the flywheel is inverted, stator mounted to the cover.  Two windings, 60 deg phase shift.  Wht/gnd  is 20W, Yell/gnd is about 70W.  This is the same basic configuration used on many bikes since the '90s.  The carb 4strokes use the same stator, as well as any estart KTM 2stroke and the old RFS 4strokes.  In estart bikes the 20W winding is used for the battery charge ckt, thats it.  70W powers lights direct, and if any DC is needed its half wave through a diode.  Beta uses the battery side for the horn too, which shorts easy and blows the fuse, killing your estart.  If you spend a lot of time in the woods far from help keep the bike simple.  Waterproof what you don't strip off.  The Sherco and Beta 4strokes (??) have higher output DC systems, around 200W, but they are EFI or electric PV (Sherco 2stroke).  Not sure what stator they use.

Oahu is my last stop, looking to rent a bike for a ride, waiting to hear back from a guy if he has gear as well. 

Thanks. I will post more after I change the stator & possibly tear apart some of the wire loom looking for poor solder connections today. Who are you renting from? My other bike is a DRZ which you wouldnt want to take on any serious trails although I used to. I have some old gear if you cant find any & I can ask around. PM me your info.

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1 minute ago, Bedunjgi said:

Thanks. I will post more after I change the stator & possibly tear apart some of the wire loom looking for poor solder connections today. Who are you renting from? My other bike is a DRZ which you wouldnt want to take on any serious trails although I used to. I have some old gear if you cant find any & I can ask around. PM me your info.

Why change the stator, has it failed, or are you going with a high output rewind?  The worst part of the harness is the ground mess.  Really all crimped together from what I remember.  What I would absolutely do ASAP considering the environment is clean and seal up the coil terminal connections, and use a separate kill button that is more waterproof.  This WILL strand you, its happened.

Waiting to hear from this guy:  dirtbikinghawaii.com

Any intel? I rode Kauai a few years back, know its slick and technical.  Not sure if I want to drag gear for two riders (son too) from NJ just for one day, 

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, GP said:

Why change the stator, has it failed, or are you going with a high output rewind?  The worst part of the harness is the ground mess.  Really all crimped together from what I remember.  What I would absolutely do ASAP considering the environment is clean and seal up the coil terminal connections, and use a separate kill button that is more waterproof.  This WILL strand you, its happened.

Waiting to hear from this guy:  dirtbikinghawaii.com

Any intel? I rode Kauai a few years back, know its slick and technical.  Not sure if I want to drag gear for two riders (son too) from NJ just for one day, 

Battery not charging properly. Tested .5 ohms yellow to white (Should be .16 +/- 15%). Its been dry but that can change if any hurricanes come near. Do you have simple instructions on how to test the R/R? I am not too familiar with using the diode function on my multimeter.

Edited by Bedunjgi

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17 minutes ago, Bedunjgi said:

Battery not charging properly. Tested .5 ohms yellow to white (Should be .16 +/- 15%). Its been dry but that can change if any hurricanes come near. Do you have simple instructions on how to test the R/R? I am not too familiar with using the diode function on my multimeter.

Did you check the charging voltage at the battery with the bike running?  Agree value is off from spec but odd stator that runs well sealed up should fail. 

Diode mode measures the forward drop across a diode in one direction, typically .6 - .7 volts.  You can troubleshoot basic bridge ckts but not the integrated rect/reg assuming it has additional cktry.

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1 minute ago, GP said:

Did you check the charging voltage at the battery with the bike running?  Agree value is off from spec but odd stator that runs well sealed up should fail. 

Diode mode measures the forward drop across a diode in one direction, typically .6 - .7 volts.  You can troubleshoot basic bridge ckts but not the integrated rect/reg assuming it has additional cktry.

Charging voltage at battery while running was low. That was the first ting I checked.

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8 minutes ago, Bedunjgi said:

Charging voltage at battery while running was low. That was the first ting I checked.

When measuring stator, just make sure your not introducing any resistance from poor connections or wiring.  I've seen wires corroded within insulation, over an inch from the end.  Also broken within insulation that looked good.  Measure at the winding if you can to be sure.  Very odd that resistance would go up from a bad winding, usually failure mode is lower due to breakdown and short between turns.  Higher would seem like poor connection/wire problem, which is better as its cheap to fix.

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Posted (edited)

Dr. Kludge Dielectric reporting back. I tested the stator that I bought from a low mileage 2016 XT before installing & it had the same ohm readings as the one my 2015 XT came with that I thought was bad. The ohm reading stated in the manual is; "Yellow - Mass" (WTF is "Mass"!? Ground?) 0.61ohms +/- 15% & is the same as my reading for "Yellow - White" (which is supposed to be 0.18ohms +/- 15%) on both stators tested from the plug & at the solder connections on the stators as GP suggested. KTM states similar numbers for the Kokusan 2K-3. So, unless the stator I bought is also bad, I think that the Beta numbers are for the wrong stator. I hope that I now have a spare properly functioning stator.

I went ahead & swapped the stators since I was already in there. FYI; If you ever do this & the stator bolts don't loosen easily, stop & heat them. I had the same problem when changing the fork spring. Beta used some seriously strong thread lock on some fasteners. I tried a heat gun but the nearby plastic was getting heated so I rested a soldering iron inside the hex of the bolt & let it sit while I did other things. I did the same with the second.

I tipped the bike to the left with paper towels under the motor & let the oil in the Bendix well drain out. Then I worked the Bendix towards me & opened it up & sprayed brake cleaner inside & all around the stator. After it was dry while reassembling, I tipped the bike against a wall to the right & poured in a little more fresh oil then specified since it seems like it could use a bit more lubrication. It seems to get whipped around & unless the starter motor oring is bad etc, very little water enters (mine had a slight milky color but was still doing its job.). I have done this a few times since new.

The service manual isnt clear but they state to put silicone paste at the wires coming off the stator & at the rubber grommets that exit the cover, but both the stators I have, already had silicone sealant at the wires that are soldered to the stator. I assume it is to assure that they stay tucked back away from the flywheel as I have read about some new KTMs having issues with the wires getting cut by the flywheel. Jeff Slavens has a video about this. The other spot that Beta says to put the silicone seems to point to the grommets which I have done with some RTV Copper every time I opened & closed it. Dielectric (Silicone) grease on the gasket helps make it reusable.

I buy the big cans of Dielectric (Silicone) grease from Home Depot & went through all the connections as I was working & filled them all up. I didnt see much corrosion. 🙏 I assume that its at least partially due to the fact that I spray the bike down with soluble machine cutting fluid after I wash it. I am not sure how good it is for the rubber parts, me, or the environment, but it seems to have kept the corrosion at bay. I also have used Simple Green HD mostly to wash it which helps with the corrosion & when new I went through all connections & sprayed Fluid Film in them (Lanolin).

Anyway, I tested the the SH721AA Regulator/Rectifier that my 2015 XT came with that I thought might be bad & compared it to the one that I bought from a low mileage 2016 XT with the Diode function on every possible combination with my multimeter & the meter always read "1" & never changed. Help! I hope that I now have a spare properly functioning Regulator/Rectifier. I will install the new one before riding Sunday & hope all is well.

The voltage drop at startup tested at the battery was normal (~10VDC) so the battery is good. I hope that I now have a spare properly functioning EathX battery. Just throw $ at it! I checked the voltage with the starter motor spinning from Red/Black to Red/White & it was the same with both stators between 18-20VAC. Charging voltage at the battery while running with both was similar 12.8 - 13.2VDC. Yellow to White while running was about 5 - 15VAC with both from idle to revved.

Are we having fun yet?

Edit; Oh yea, I don't know if its possible on post 2015 bikes but since I removed the Oil Injection, I had some slack in the wires so I loosened the wire clamp at the back of the fuel tank & moved the connections forward so I could access & test them from the left side without doing anything with the fuel tank. I also took all the wires & connections under the left rear fender side & moved them to the center in the middle of the U shaped water diverter to keep them dry & also be able to pull them through from under the seat to test them. The only connection left there now is the CDI & another large one that wouldn't fit into the middle without lifting the subframe (I will do that next time the subframe is loose) but its filled with Dielectric Grease & pointed down so it doesn't fill up with water. The only plugs left to deal with are under the rear fender & the headlight cowl but they have gotten at least some attention since new. Now to find the three mystery connections from this photo; 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bedunjgi

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Posted (edited)

Correction; At 1:25 I say Red/White but I meant to say Yellow.

Edited by Bedunjgi

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Posted (edited)

I had some time this morning to work on the bike before riding & was able to catch my tail after chasing it for a while;

Both stators are working properly. The manual is wrong. .5 Ohm is fine between White-Yellow coming direct from the stator both on & off the bike. Also, if you want to test AC voltage on the yellow & white wires direct from the stator while running, you will get very low readings probing between them but, once you put either probe from either of the yellow or white wires to ground, you will see the proper AC readings (~30VAC at idle to ~ 60VAC revving).

Either my Multimeter is bad or its impossible to test either of the Regulator / Rectifiers, but they both work properly. It has worked properly for all other tests & I use it regularly. I blew my high beam & running light when I disconnected the R/R to test the voltage on the incoming wires. DOH! Once I reinstalled it, I ran with my low beam that wasn't on at the time of the disconnect throughout the day & it worked properly. I put heat paste under the R/R to help conduct some heat to the frame. I checked it throughout the day & it was very warm at times but not too hot.

I opened up the headlight cowl & started moving wires around while my multimeter was connected on 20VDC setting with alligator clips to the battery while the motor was running. I found that the electrical tape that I had used to cover the broken front brake switch wire had slipped off a bit & may have been grounding out. I thought that was the problem but after I eliminated it as a cause, I saw varying voltage readings as I moved wires around.

I disconnected all the plugs from the computer bracket & cut open the loom & saw some of the questionable connections that have been discussed here & on the other related thread I have going. I was running out of time & want to do the job properly so I just used a pliers to pinch together the wires through the insulation & put everything back together so I could ride.

One thing I noticed that might have also thrown me off besides the incorrect stator ohm readings, the inability to test the R/Rs & not seeing high AC voltage until I grounded one of the probes from the stator yellow & white wires, was that the charging voltage takes a while to creep up. I don't know if that had thrown me off from the beginning when I was testing it while holding the probes to the battery for about 15 seconds & deciding that the charging voltage wasn't high enough, but I think it might be related to the capacitor charging because once it reached a higher charging voltage & stayed there, even after stopping the motor, I needed to run the starter motor while holding the kill switch to see the voltage drop back down (Capacitorr discharged?). After I found that my OE Capacitor had failed from corrosion, I installed a similar rated one (4700mf?) but possibly a bit more robust. Well, at least I know the capacitor is working!

Anyway, the bike ran great today & started every time so it was charging. I was a bit cautious of running the fan & kept it off until it started to get hot (I have it hooked up to a switch & have a temperature gauge with the sensor mounted to a head bolt). I think that the replacement Spal fan I got, although it looks very similar to the OE Spal fan, might draw more amps.

Here are some of the usual suspects from a preliminary preop biopsy (Four pinks?, 7? blacks, 3 purples). A few strands of copper wire were poking out the side of the insulation of the black wires (Keep it greasy :thumbsup:);

IMG_9118.jpg.d9ab532354f72eb60425b8423cd43d0c.jpg

Edited by Bedunjgi
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Posted (edited)

I tried a new Digital Multimeter to confirm & the readings are the same. I am confident in stating that there is a misprint & that .5 ohms on yellow to white from what I believe to be a Kokusan 4K3B Stator, is acceptable. Also, the Shindengen SH721AA Half Wave, Single Phase Regulator/Rectifier, cannot be tested with normal Digital Multimeters except for charging voltage while the motor is running;

http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html

I have ordered the eBay wire loom I posted here;

Rather then try to do it on the bike, I will disassemble the new one, rebuild it & take lots of photos & post them.

 

 

Edited by Bedunjgi
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I received the wire loom I bought from eBay from a 2016 (Mine in a 2015) & laid it out on a piece of plastic & quickly traced it & labeled the connections for reference before I stripped the covers. These are photos that I made for myself just for reference & I don't feel like wasting allot of time sharing every detail but I will continue to point out important findings or answer questions as time permits. After these photos were taken, I stripped all the covers & laid it back out on the tracing. I will try to take some time to make a video with all the wires exposed of what I have found & how to locate crimps buried in the loom as well as how the wiring diagrams are confusing since several of the connections that look like they are from plugs, are actually crimp connections in the loom & far from the location shown on the schematic. I will be using heat shrink type crimps with adhesive & possibly some strategically placed dielectric grease on the wires so as not to disturb the adhesive as well as additional heat shrink wire cover with adhesive to redo the crimps in the loom & then I will be rewrapping it with self closing split braided wrap sleeving & zip tying all the breakouts etc. I don't want to have to disconnect all the plugs to used regular no split covers & also want to keep the wires easily accessible. The braided wrap is protective & also allows water to drain;

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