oils to use for 450x break in ?

[2000xr250]

wondering what are some good oils i could use for my 450x break in ? i know not too use synthetic ppl say a mineral based but there seems to be so many types on the market ! 

[Jim Dettman]

That's like asking different people what's the best thing to drink....but to answer the question a bit:

a. Anything that meets the spec in the manual.

b. You change it often.

Many like Shell Rotella because you can get it at walmart.  Of course Honda's GN4 can be gotten just about as cheap.

Biggest thing; make sure you use something not labeled as "energy conserving".  That type of oil has friction modifiers in it and if you use it on the tranny side, your clutch will not like you<g>

 Also some do use engine oil on the engine side and gear oil on the tranny side.   You can use the same oil on both sides and that's what the manual calls for.   The benefit there is that if a seal leaks and oil migrates, no real issues because of the oil type.

Jim.

[mv7000]

Maxima "break-in"oil 10/30

[MotoTribology]

In my experiences, a special "break-in" oil is not necessary. As long as you use a decently performing oil, the break-in procedure you follow will have much more an effect than the oil choice.

I believe a mineral oil is the best choice for break-in because there is no need to spend the money on a synthetic oil that you are going to change so quickly. A good mineral oil will provide all the protection/performance you need for the break-in period and then you change that for whatever you want to use afterward (mineral, semi-syn, or synthetic) and follow a reasonable change interval for whatever you choose.

Edited April 25, 2017 by MotoTribology

[Jim Dettman]

Actually, mineral based oil should always be used for break-in because the oil is composed of molecules of different sizes (this is why it breaks down faster than Synthetics).  Synthetic is oil that has molecules that are all the same size, so it's "slipperer" (yeah, a real technical term<g>) than mineral based oils.  What you want for break-in is some friction.

Also, worth a quick read:

Jim.

[MotoTribology]

22 minutes ago, Jim Dettman said:

Actually, mineral based oil should always be used for break-in because the oil is composed of molecules of different sizes (this is why it breaks down faster than Synthetics).  Synthetic is oil that has molecules that are all the same size, so it's "slipperer" (yeah, a real technical term<g>) than mineral based oils.  What you want for break-in is some friction.

Also, worth a quick read:

Jim.

- Synthetic engine oils are typically composed of a mixture of multiple synthetic base oils, a viscosity modifying polymer, and a multitude of additives. So they hardly consist of any uniformly sized molecules.

- Molecule size does not factor into the oils degradation rates, unsaturated carbon bonds that are prone to oxidation do.

- While some ester base oils may exhibit some friction reducing tendencies compared to mineral oils, fully formulated synthetic oils don't usually result in any measurably lower friction than a fully formulated mineral oil. Even if a particular oil did result in a lower coefficient of friction, it would still break-in the engine just fine since break-in is about wear and not friction.

- If someone wanted to use it (and many people do), a synthetic oil can be used to break-in a motor just as well as a mineral oil. It is just a waste of money and totally unnecessary with the many options for good mineral oil out there.

[Jim Dettman]

A quote from one of many sources:

" One could make the analogy that conventional oil is like rocks (varying molecules with many impurities) and synthetic oil is like marbles (uniform molecules with few impurities). "

http://knowhow.napaonline.com/synthetic-oil-made/

Synthetics can be made from crude, or more likely today, propane or natural gas.   It's basically the control of the molecule size that gives synthetics the edge in performance over mineral based products along with the additive packages used.

 As far as break-in oil, engine needs very tremendously of course, but almost all performance engine manufacturers recommend mineral based oil for break-in and only switching to synthetic after that.

Jim.

[MotoTribology]

36 minutes ago, Jim Dettman said:

A quote from one of many sources:

" One could make the analogy that conventional oil is like rocks (varying molecules with many impurities) and synthetic oil is like marbles (uniform molecules with few impurities). "

http://knowhow.napaonline.com/synthetic-oil-made/

Synthetics can be made from crude, or more likely today, propane or natural gas.   It's basically the control of the molecule size that gives synthetics the edge in performance over mineral based products along with the additive packages used.

 As far as break-in oil, engine needs very tremendously of course, but almost all performance engine manufacturers recommend mineral based oil for break-in and only switching to synthetic after that.

Jim.

What that Napa page is describing is group III base oils which are not truly synthetic. GTL and crude refined group III oils have fantastic performance and are very much on par with synthetic PAOs in many performance categories. They do go through some pretty severe refining too, so the argument that they are synthetic because of the amount of chemical changes made to them is certainly valid, and they are legally considered synthetic. However many formulators do not consider them synthetic and reserve that label for group IV PAOs and group V esters. Group IV and V synthetics will use by-products from crude oils as reactants when manufactured, but they are not refined from crude oil or natural gas directly.

Here is my article on the subject: http://www.mototribology.com/articles/true-synthetic-or-fake-synthetic/

Here is another one about the molecular sizes: http://www.mototribology.com/spec-checker-and-a-synthetic-misconception/ Part 1 of that post can be ignored since it was just a plug for another part of the site when it first came out, but part 2 is about the molecular size misconception you mentioned.

I can only present you with facts and my interpretation of them. I choose to interpret them from the most logical stance I can muster. What you choose to do with them from that point on is up to you.

[Jim Dettman]

<<I can only present you with facts and my interpretation of them. I choose to interpret them from the most logical stance I can muster. What you choose to do with them from that point on is up to you.>>

a. It's your own article.

b. You given no references or footnotes to back it up what your stating, so it is an opinion piece as it stands.

c. You haven't stated your qualifications anywhere.

 I'm not trying to be argumentative here...nor am I in the oil industry or a lubrication expert.  But what I have stated I have read in numerous places and heard from those that are. 

 If what you are stating are "facts", then please back them up with references to articles or white papers from Shell, Mobil, Lucas, etc. and I will stand educated.

Jim.

[MotoTribology]

1 hour ago, Jim Dettman said:

<<I can only present you with facts and my interpretation of them. I choose to interpret them from the most logical stance I can muster. What you choose to do with them from that point on is up to you.>>

a. It's your own article.

b. You given no references or footnotes to back it up what your stating, so it is an opinion piece as it stands.

c. You haven't stated your qualifications anywhere.

 I'm not trying to be argumentative here...nor am I in the oil industry or a lubrication expert.  But what I have stated I have read in numerous places and heard from those that are. 

 If what you are stating are "facts", then please back them up with references to articles or white papers from Shell, Mobil, Lucas, etc. and I will stand educated.

Jim.

a. Yes, because I feel that my own articles provide the best insight to my analysis on the subject. I wish there was another reliable source for the information that I write about, but sadly there isn't any that I know of which is why I was compelled to start doing it myself.

b. You are telling me that you need references to believe that oil is made from several different chemicals and not a single type of molecule that is uniformly sized regardless of whether it is synthetic or mineral?

Here you go:

http://oil-additives.evonik.com/sites/lists/RE/DocumentsOA/Component-performance-in-engine-oil-formulation-EN.pdf

http://www.palmerholland.com/News/file.axd?file=/2015/Documents/Synthetics Lubricant Basestock Brochure.pdf

http://machinerylubrication.com/Read/28819/engine-lubrication

Several well established companies/publications to re-enforce that engine oils are made of a mix of many different base oils and additives. If you'd like, I could surely find references to prove that different chemicals have different molecular sizes, but I don't think that will be necessary.

c. I've stated my qualifications in many places. I don't feel the need to post them in every single thread whenever I try to give someone advice.

[2000xr250]

all I asked was a simple list of some good oils to use !!! not a story on motor oil ..

[FORMA MOTO]

On 4/25/2017 at 7:02 PM, 2000xr250 said:

all I asked was a simple list of some good oils to use !!! not a story on motor oil ..

Welcome to TT?

Use any JASCO MA rated oil in the trans and any MB or MA rated oil in the motor.

10/40 is recommended but not required.

Break in of the TOP END only takes about 15 min, and REQUIRES lots of deceleration and acceleration, with varying short loads .

Besides that, there is no 'break in' with Honda motors.

Synthetic oil does not 'lubricate' better, it just takes longer to break down from heat and shear loads. Because off road motors experience so much dust, synthetic oil is usually very dirty before it gets a chance to break down at all.....so you could be wasting your money.

If you ride in dusty areas, you need to change both oils often. 5-20 hours depending on dust and loads.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Krannie McKranface

[trackmaster]

What's break in?

[nks731]

Thanks Krannie!! Good cap on the thread.

 

[2000xr250]

decided to use the sae30 brad penn  grade 1 break in oil thoughts ?

[BMRFlagstaff]

On 4/29/2017 at 5:21 PM, Krannie McKranface said:

Welcome to TT?

I go rotella for all my bikes.  Have you ever heard of a moto engine fail due to bad oil?  Sure, out of oil but not bad...

 

And to Krannie, knew you couldn't leave.  Makes me happy, I learned a ton.

[FORMA MOTO]

10 minutes ago, BMRFlagstaff said:

I go rotella for all my bikes.  Have you ever heard of a moto engine fail due to bad oil?  Sure, out of oil but not bad...

 

And to Krannie, knew you couldn't leave.  Makes me happy, I learned a ton.

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