WR250F/290F VS CRF230F

[mixxer]

I just made that title to suck you guys in and ask for comparison information....

I haven't built one for myself... Or ridden one... But it has been on my list for a long time...

Right now I have a 5 valve YZ450F that I did as a complete tear down , modify, rebuild....  Full blown woods suspension with ProAction triple stage woods valving and race tech springs...

And I set the engine up with balls out torque in mind from idle to rev limiter... The bike has a complete wretched excess of power that you would have to ride to believe...

 

And I dont have the talent to make use of the power... Not at all , sadly...  But it is pure adrenaline and handles like it's on rails... Rocks and roots are just sucked right up and it tracks like it's on rails with the suspension... So it is fun to pretend I'm good enough to deserve to pilot it... Lol... My alter ego can ride it like a pro...

Now.... The 5 valve Yamaha's live or die by their porting...

You can have less and bigger valves that make killer flow by lifting the valves high and the intake port flowing through the space between the back of the valve and the valve seat... Like the window your line of sight would see if the valves were open and you were looking through the intake port to the far side of the cylinder wall...

The less valves the more important it is to open them high and use that big open window... 

 

The more valves you have , the more important it is to pull flow around the short side of the port and use the entire greater perifery of the valve and seat for flow from low to medium lifts... That IS the advantage of more and more valves... The greater circumferential area around the whole valve... Use it all for flow and you will have an advantage ... Don't and you have a built in handicap....  The 2 and 4 valve porting techniques are not enough to make a 5 valve do what it can do...

So.... Raise the roof... Raise the floor with epoxy ... Higher velocity with correct port volume... And now you have an intake port that has a better angle to approach the short side radius and back of.the valve... Also makes it easier to make a much better , more gentle and effective short side radius... And now a 5 valve can flex its own unique power advantage.... Massive, early torque and lots of it all the way to a flat , no fall off after peak to rev limiter power...

You can't approach them correctly without understanding them and.what their strengths are... There's more...  But not important now...

I have done headwork for lots of happy yz/wr 250 customers... 

 

And what I can't stop thinking about is the fact that you can bolt on a big bore kit that  takes the YZ/WR 250 5 valvers to 290cc

 

A 40cc simple bore kit on a 250 is a huge and easy gain...

And I just KNOW I can make a WR290 that would drip way more torque than the 250 world ever thought of...

 

Seems like an awesome compromise in the not enough vs way too much power to control of the 450..

I'm in love with the motor I keep building in my mind... 

But I have seen a lot of stones thrown towards the wr250 in this forum...

I was.wondering why there is no love for the wr or yz250s...

My 450 is flat out awesome ...  Except I really can't ride it like I stole it... I don't have the finesse ...

[mx4god]

I had considered a wr250f a couple years ago. One of the reasons was the evidence from this thread: https://www.thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/696659-08-wr250f-from-stock-to-modified-process-and-dynos/

This guy took a stock 08 and did some fairly simple mods (290 kit, exhaust, cam, jetting) and dyno'd the bike throughout the process. The stock to mod showed fairly impressive percentage gain in low to mid range torque.

[bajatrailrider]

I have 7 Wr450s one Wr250 and spent lots of time on Big bore Wr250. Any of these bikes hold it wide open too fast for most to handle off road,stock or mods. The wr250 with out big bore I have no love for it. No mid range,built with big bore great power band plenty of mid range. I have left out YZs because for our type riding poor trail bike. Getting back to big turn off on Wr250 even more so on Yz 250. Lack of top speed ,Im not talking about.How fast it will go talking about just going along at 60/65. We geared up the Wr250 still too slow,and then to hard to ride trail. Of course the big bore Wr250  helped all of that . There super reliable The built Wr250 fine for more opened up trails.

[mixxer]

Thanks for input gentlemen....

Lack of power would not be one of my worries.... The power that I know is ready to be pulled out of the bike is my big draw to it...

I didn't know if there was a special reason to hate them for unreliability or terrible handling... Stuff other than motor...

I know for a fact that if you run a good air filter and do good filter maintenance that the 5 valvers have the flat out most immortal valve setup ever.... I still do porting on bikes and quads with over 10 years on them with no valve adjustments needed and zero measurable wear... Quality, small, light, titanium valves... No impact, no wear...

[VortecCPI]

WR250F was awful.  YZ250F gearbox ratios way too close and stiff suspension. 

Great bikes but not in the areas we ride.  MX chassis no good for our needs.

Love, love, love that YZ250F five-valve engine at the dirt drag strip!!!

[mixxer]

48 minutes ago, VortecCPI said:

WR250F was awful.  YZ250F gearbox ratios way too close and stiff suspension. 

Great bikes but not in the areas we ride.  MX chassis no good for our needs.

Love, love, love that YZ250F five-valve engine at the dirt drag strip!!!

What did you not like about the wr250f?

In this case you have to imagine a wr250f with about 50% more power everywhere.... Massive torque off idle and a top end that will run away from the YZ MX version....

[VortecCPI]

32 minutes ago, mixxer said:

What did you not like about the wr250f?

In this case you have to imagine a wr250f with about 50% more power everywhere.... Massive torque off idle and a top end that will run away from the YZ MX version....

I spent over ten years riding a 1984 Al Baker XR265R.  That chassis went on to become the XR200 so it was light and nimble and small and I had grown very accustomed to it.  The CRF230 is almost the exact same size as that old bike.

The WR250F was nothing more than a detued MX bike with a wide-ratio gearbox and softer suspension.  The steering was way too slow, the wheelbase was way too long, and the bike was just too big and clunky for my needs.  The engine was the worst thing I had ever experienced.  Zero bottom followed by a brief bit of power in the middle followed by nothing at the top.  It had bottom and mid somewhat like a 2T but no top.  Trying to time the engine speed with trail work and obstacles was just about impossible.  You'd hit the gas and then nothing would happen unless you were in that tiny little band right in the middle.  Trying do simple things like power-sliding around turns was like solving an equation with ten variables.  Right after that I spent time on top of a YZ250F and while then engine had a nice wide power delivery it was still too soft at the bottom and the MX chassis, gearbox, and stiff suspension was just awful.  You could not even get the YZ250F around our two-mile closed-loop enduro track.  It was just too much work and you could not keep the CRF230s in sight for more than a few minutes.  I should note this was a very tight and very technical track.  Some of the hairpin turns could were impossible to navigate with the YZ250F.

Compared to the old 1984 Al Baker XR265R the WR250F was a complete disaster.  While the DR forks on the old AB bike were a bit weak (Bruce could have fixed them) the rest of it was sheer magic.  It made everything easy and the engine was nothing short of amazing and spectacular.

The WR250F was so bad I swear I thought I must have forget how to ride after a ten-year break.  A few weeks later I threw my leg over a late-model XR250 and I could ride again!  It was a miracle!

Hated that XR250 too...

Edited April 28, 2017 by VortecCPI

[mixxer]

All well said, 

But the paradigm we face on this forum of 230 riders is that we find there is no limit to what we are willing to fix or mod on the 230...

Suspension work mandatory....

Complete suspension swaps and re springing and valving commonplace...

Handlebar , peg, seat relationship out of whack... Get busy modifying there....

Threads devoted to swingarm lengthening because the wheelbase is too short ... While in the thread before it the short wheelbase is touted as the best thing since sliced bread... 

Even complete frame swaps like full on BBR aluminum bikes... All fair game...

And whooeee baby ... Let's talk engine building... The 230 is a complete turd from the factory... But somehow unlimited modifications are the norm here... Carb swaps... Cams... Big valves... Big bores... High comp piston kits... Pipes... Strokers... Go go go...More more more...!!! Arriba arriba, andele' andele' !!!!

Don't get me wrong... I'm on board... Love the whole retro air cooled thumper... Love to modify...

But... The funny part to me... Is while the sky is the limit... And.its generally accepted that the 230 needs literally everything bought and modded to be a serious mount....

The mindset is somehow that other machines aren't worthy of a small amount of work to make dirt worthy.... Lol... Hypocrisy at it it's base level....

When I rode the most regular and was the fastest in the woods was on a super modded xr400... Tall , heavy, and not much perfect from factory... But it was modded out and my skill set adapted and it was game on...

I just don't know where the 230 is deemed worthy of literally unlimited mods... Yet stones are thrown at any other bike with reckless abandon.... He who lives in a glass house.....lol

[VortecCPI]

30 minutes ago, mixxer said:

I just don't know where the 230 is deemed worthy of literally unlimited mods... Yet stones are thrown at any other bike with reckless abandon.... He who lives in a glass house.....lol

For me it was the chassis size an geometry of the WR250F that could never have worked for me.  I am 100% sure that engine can be made right as I have read about it time and time again.  But then I would be stuck with that big long tall slow-steering monster.  And what would be the cost of making that engine right?  I have no idea but I would have to guess it would not be cheap.

As far as modification of the CRF230 that IS the fun part for many of us!  In my book all the experimentation I did was almost as much fun as building trails and tracks and riding.  And the cost of this stuff for the CRF230 is so affordable it is almost ridiculous.  And just about anybody can do it with help from people in here.  Tearing into a five-valve liquid-cooled Yami?  Not so sure about that.

The CRF230 really IS a warmed-over XR200 and, just like the venerable old XR200, it has it's place.  That place is very small for many but very large for some.  I have grown to love my CRF230 over the years for countless reasons.  When I started this project I had so much disposable income I could have bought any number of bikes I wanted but I didn't because the CR230 was just way too much fun.  My business partner feels the exact same way.  He loved the YZ250F but for the riding we did the CRF230 was the bike he liked best.  He had ~$100,000 per month RMR at that time and while he had numerous classic cars and race cars he was always changing he never moved away from the trusty CRF230.  He said is was just too easy to ride and too much fun to consider anything else at the time.  He put forth a lot of time and effort on a late-model XR250 and learned to hate it just like I did.

Edited April 28, 2017 by VortecCPI

[mixxer]

If you 100k per month guys need a new pool boy... Let me know...

[SteveThe Snakes]

There is nothing wrong with a WR250. They need just as many mods as a CRF230. Big bore, porting, factory pro-zipty racing needle jet mod, Athena dual sqray acc. pump squirter. Racetech base valves in the forks. Pretty much everything the WR450 gets to be a runner. 

 

However I don't think you will achive the off idle torque and easy power dilevery down very low of a built CRF230. 

Its been known there has always been an affection for the xr200's in rocky gnarly enduro type of riding. A modified CRF230 has picked up on that theme where a little bit of the xr200 just didn't quite have enough power. 

So I would say a lot of what you do or get might be based on the riding you do. 

I also like the punishment factor of riding the smallest foo foo bike and going where a 230 doesn't belong. Like Donkeyland I believe I will be riding the 230 there this Saturday with the nuttties that are looking for sheer punishment. The smallest bike ridden there will be KTM 300's. 

Bottom line whatever you get needs to be modified and suited to your riding area. 

[VortecCPI]

5 minutes ago, mixxer said:

If you 100k per month guys need a new pool boy... Let me know...

All that money is now in Carl Icahn's pockets!  He gave us a very good screwing with the Family Dollar upset!

[bajatrailrider]

The wr450/250 is the most reliable water cooled bikes made. With me seeing all type bikes on a weekly biases. Have to agree with Vortec on YZ gear box (Not talking about you guys riding them on open fast stuff)  Tall 1st gear   4th and 5th almost the same. As for money moding 230f V Wr450.For me to ride the 450 over 2 grand off self parts,one off parts custom made 5/600$. Good part Motor mods only Carb jets/pipe muffler. On a wr250 to make big bore (That is a must have) 1 to 1500$ more depending on build) Wide open stock Wr/YZ250 very fast, But who can ride it like that.

[VortecCPI]

7 minutes ago, stevethe said:

There is nothing wrong with a WR250. They need just as many mods as a CRF230. Big bore, porting, factory pro-zipty racing needle jet mod, Athena dual sqray acc. pump squirter. Racetech base valves in the forks. Pretty much everything the WR450 gets to be a runner. 

 

However I don't think you will achive the off idle torque and easy power dilevery down very low of a built CRF230. 

Its been known there has always been an affection for the xr200's in rocky gnarly enduro type of riding. A modified CRF230 has picked up on that theme where a little bit of the xr200 just didn't quite have enough power. 

So I would say a lot of what you do or get might be based on the riding you do. 

I also like the punishment factor of riding the smallest foo foo bike and going where a 230 doesn't belong. Like Donkeyland I believe I will be riding the 230 there this Saturday with the nuttties that are looking for sheer punishment. The smallest bike ridden there will be KTM 300's. 

Bottom line whatever you get needs to be modified and suited to your riding area. 

Well said Steve.  There is NO bike out there that is perfect out of the box.

Funny thing is for many years I believed the wonderful old XR200 was beneath me.  That's because I was a closed-minded fool riding what may have been one of the best bikes available at the time (Al Baker XR265R).  While that bike was simply amazing an XR200 was just far easier to ride due it's incredibly forgiving engine.  The Al Baker XR265R required lots of clutch work and the right gear at the right time.  It was anything but forgiving and had to be ridden like a 2T.  However, the reward was an exhilarating ride that was fast and surprised many a KDX rider.  And the sweet sound of that all-out twin-carb engine with Mugen Desert Grind cam...  What...  Where was I?

One of the things I love about the CRF230 is that it is as if all the torque has been moved far left on the TQ curve compared to an XR200.  While I think the XR200 is far peppier from mid to top the CRF230 is far torquier from idle to mid.  Since the CRF230 is quite a bit heavier than the XR200 this works out very nicely.

Yup...  Nothing but a "warmed-over XR200" for sure...

[SteveThe Snakes]

31 minutes ago, VortecCPI said:

Well said Steve.  There is NO bike out there that is perfect out of the box.

Funny thing is for many years I believed the wonderful old XR200 was beneath me.  That's because I was a closed-minded fool riding what may have been one of the best bikes available at the time (Al Baker XR265R).  While that bike was simply amazing an XR200 was just far easier to ride due it's incredibly forgiving engine.  The Al Baker XR265R required lots of clutch work and the right gear at the right time.  It was anything but forgiving and had to be ridden like a 2T.  However, the reward was an exhilarating ride that was fast and surprised many a KDX rider.  And the sweet sound of that all-out twin-carb engine with Mugen Desert Grind cam...  What...  Where was I?

One of the things I love about the CRF230 is that it is as if all the torque has been moved far left on the TQ curve compared to an XR200.  While I think the XR200 is far peppier from mid to top the CRF230 is far torquier from idle to mid.  Since the CRF230 is quite a bit heavier than the XR200 this works out very nicely.

Yup...  Nothing but a "warmed-over XR200" for sure...

Ah yes but I was never too fond of the old dual carb xr250's. My forte was the late model highly modified XR250-300's. I rode one extremely successful for years and years then transferred it to the younger boy and only sold recently.? He now rides one of the WR450's. 

All I have left of her are pictures. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by stevethe

[mixxer]

25 minutes ago, stevethe said:

Ah yes but I was never too fond of the old dual carb xr250's. My forte was the late model highly modified XR250-300's. I rode one extremely successful for years and years then transferred it to the younger boy and only sold recently.? He now rides one of the WR450's. 

All I have left of her are pictures. 

Love the xr280 setup to the core!

I built 2 of them... The last one I gave to one of my sons... Who thought he wanted to be like travis and had to have an rm125... So like a complete fool I told him the xr was his and he could sell it if he wanted... what a huge mistake that was... That RM would have needed to be ten times better than it was to upgrade it's status to piece of sh!t ... And it's gone now too...

I should have never been such a fool... I should have said... Kid , it's my bike and you can ride it if you want... Save up and buy whatever else you want, but the bike is really mine...

[bajatrailrider]

31 minutes ago, stevethe said:

Ah yes but I was never too fond of the old dual carb xr250's. My forte was the late model highly modified XR250-300's. I rode one extremely successful for years and years then transferred it to the younger boy and only sold recently.? He now rides one of the WR450's. 

All I have left of her are pictures. 

When I lived in CA this bike made many owners of big bikes Cry. Riding at Donkey Land. Three guys on Cr500s came up to us said can we tag along. Steve said yes but we are hill climbing,Cracking up.The 3 Cr500 riders said Surely we can go up any hill a Xr250 can go up.So after the 3 Xr300s went up. The 3 Cr500 riders where not able to get 1/4 way up. Said We have been Shamed.

[SteveThe Snakes]

It was the only XR250 to ever clean Butterball hill climb in Jawbone Cyn. 

Especially doing it on a day when it was near impossible. 

[mixxer]

I have to say guys .... When we are not on the same page about what bikes can make torque and where they make it at..

I forget that you haven't had a ride on engines with headwork done by me.... That's where all my confusion comes in ... lol

I'm always thinking wtf are they talking about with lack of bottom end,??!? you need 2 neck braces and a half turn throttle to manage one of those...!!!

And then I think... Oh yeah... I didn't set everyone's bike up here....

Chest fully puffed out.... Arms out like apples are in armpits....Full swagger strut... ?

[adnohguy]

All well said, 
But the paradigm we face on this forum of 230 riders is that we find there is no limit to what we are willing to fix or mod on the 230...
Suspension work mandatory....
Complete suspension swaps and re springing and valving commonplace...
Handlebar , peg, seat relationship out of whack... Get busy modifying there....
Threads devoted to swingarm lengthening because the wheelbase is too short ... While in the thread before it the short wheelbase is touted as the best thing since sliced bread... 
Even complete frame swaps like full on BBR aluminum bikes... All fair game...
And whooeee baby ... Let's talk engine building... The 230 is a complete turd from the factory... But somehow unlimited modifications are the norm here... Carb swaps... Cams... Big valves... Big bores... High comp piston kits... Pipes... Strokers... Go go go...More more more...!!! Arriba arriba, andele' andele' !!!!
Don't get me wrong... I'm on board... Love the whole retro air cooled thumper... Love to modify...
But... The funny part to me... Is while the sky is the limit... And.its generally accepted that the 230 needs literally everything bought and modded to be a serious mount....
The mindset is somehow that other machines aren't worthy of a small amount of work to make dirt worthy.... Lol... Hypocrisy at it it's base level....
When I rode the most regular and was the fastest in the woods was on a super modded xr400... Tall , heavy, and not much perfect from factory... But it was modded out and my skill set adapted and it was game on...
I just don't know where the 230 is deemed worthy of literally unlimited mods... Yet stones are thrown at any other bike with reckless abandon.... He who lives in a glass house.....lol

IMHO:
Any bike that needs no modifications and "does it all right out of the box" is boring. (Yes I realize, "pipe dream" but you get my point hopefully)

It's just as much fun working on them as riding them.

The magic of a 230f is it's a beginner bike, the automatic perception is it's not supposed to be a real bike that any "normal" rider would choose to ride on the weekends. When it is killing it on the tight stuff or up hill's that many "experts" on bikes with 50~60 hp cannot keep up with the beginner bike, when your laughing under your helmet so much your goggles fog up, that's when you realize this cheap little girls bike is way too much fun to even believe.... and yes fully set up takes work and some $ but it's still less expensive than most so called "bikes that do it all right out of the box"

Cheap, reliable, good fuel mileage, fun, easy to work on, parts availability, forces you to smile and laugh out loud, what else am I missing?