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Seeing the only guy that ever gave us actual numbers combined with proof we could count on was Coeshow. Who's the winner when two verbal fights break out like what just happen with VortecCPI vs. Mixxer in the thread " CRF 230 Performance- Still Searching?"  Tho i wasn't a fan of Mixxer... I have to say he laid down the law on VortecCPI. I've been waiting for VortecCPI to bounce back seeing he's crafty! 

I hope he hasn't been KO'd:smashpc: but seeing as no one will know who the true winner was, due to distance. I want to see them do a build off/face off. Who's bike would win in an actual fight?  Lip service counts for nothing if you're not willing 2 prove what you've been selling. If one follow my threads, I never tell readers what engine arrangements work best. I don't sale people my personal hearsay on power.  Reason why?...I don't have a dyno, nor am i racing my 230f up against other 230f's to know what engine mods work best. Plus reasoning allows me to understand, what we think are power gains could simply be power band shifts. That's way I usually only comment on suspension...Yes things that can be proven by any reader.

 

Sense we all love our 230f, what would be better than to C two Billy Goats ramming heads in real time...seeing they both live a few blocks down the street from each other, they should get it on! Now lets see who blinks first. If they take this challenge?...we'll all benefit, and many hearsay facts can be laid to rest.

FANS LETS SEE WHO BLINK 1ST...

 

Edited by The Plvis

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Okay...  I'll bite...

100% disagree on our exchange of ideas being a verbal fight brother.  I am small business owner and I have to deal with owners, directors, VPs, budgets, and adversarial employees/consultants/suppliers/vendors on a daily basis.  As far as KOd I've been in the ring so many times both literally and figuratively it will take a lot more than that.  I have had my A$$ handed to me by REAL adversaries in the business world and by REAL adversaries in the ring.  In the end it always turns out just fine because I put myself there ON PURPOSE and I plow over it.  If Mr. Mixxer and I met face-to-face I GUARANTEE we would become good friends because under the keyboard exchanges is decades of life and interests in common.  Just because I challenge him does not mean I dismiss him.  Very much the opposite my friend.

As far as dyno data you are 100% correct again in that we have seen zero dyno data from Mr. Mixxer IN THE CONTEXT OF CRF230.  I find it incredibly interesting you call ME out on that but not him.  If you are going to criticize me for having no dyno data you MUST also criticize him.  If Mr. Mixxer knows all there is to know about CRF230 why did he get his cam from Terry?  Why does he not have his own magic cam grinds?  Where are HIS dyno sheets showing PC outperforms all other pipes on the market.  If Mr. Mixxer knows all there is to know about CRF230 why did he buy his pipe from PC?  Why does he not have his own magic pipe designs like Terry does?  My guess is Mr. Mixer is new to the XR200/CRf230 world but I could be very wrong there.  I say that because he tends not to give actual examples like Chuck and Terry almost always do.

The big players in the context of XR200/CRF230 are Mike Coe, Frank Nye, and Pete Fisher (Powroll).  As Mike and Pete are out of the picture that leaves R&D work with Frank and Terry and makes acquisition of ongoing data more spotty and difficult.  I guess we could look to Brazil but many in here have already called BS and/or dismissed some of those dyno numbers as well as claimed displacements.

For the record here is why I responded to Mr. Mixxer the way I did.  Number one I tend to be cynical in an effort to be funny and to make reading my long-winded writing more tolerable.  That obviously doesn't work for everybody but I could care less.  I probably should but I don't because I have nor affiliation with or obligation to ThumperTalk.  Number two instead of Mr. Mixxer implying I was creating fabricated information (for what purpose?) I would have expected him to have asked "are you sure about the results" and/or "how did you verify the results" and /or "is it possible we have some sort of anomaly or combination that gives mixed results".  His telling readers I was just trying to promote the EO system because it cost me $500 was just plain silly.

I have worked hard in this forum and my company has no affiliations with ANY of the vendors used here nor do I.  Unlike many we DO have two CRF230s at our disposal AND two test tracks in our back yards.  So while we have not done dyno runs (we have access to two locally) we do have very good test environments.  Besides all that dyno runs are not the tell-all source of how good an engine performs in a given context.  Lap times and track average and maximum speeds are a far superior indicator of engine performance.  Terry told me he once built three engines of identical displacement but of varying bore/stroke ratios.  He said the engines all produced nearly the same peak HP numbers but on the track results were very different.

Instead of comparing dyno sheets how about we compare customer and vendor references?  How about we compare credit lines, bank accounts, vertical pushups, etc.  Very silly indeed.  Perhaps YOU fund the entire project and give us two identical CRF230s and we ride them and see who can produce the fastest lap times?  This is all very silly and gives absolutely NOTHING back to our readers.

In fact I DO have a challenge for Mr. Mixxer and anybody and everybody else reading posts in these forums.  Please don't stop challenging sources of data and please don't stop asking questions.

Edited by VortecCPI
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30 minutes ago, VortecCPI said:

Okay...  I'll bite...

100% disagree on our exchange of ideas being a verbal fight brother.  I am small business owner and I have to deal with owners, directors, VPs, budgets, and adversarial employees/consultants/suppliers/vendors on a daily basis.  As far as KOd I've been in the ring so many times both literally and figuratively it will take a lot more than that.  I have had my A$$ handed to me by REAL adversaries in the business world and by REAL adversaries in the ring.  In the end it always turns out just fine because I put myself there ON PURPOSE and I plow over it.  If Mr. Mixxer and I met face-to-face I GUARANTEE we would become good friends because under the keyboard exchanges is decades of life and interests in common.  Just because I challenge him does not mean I dismiss him.  Very much the opposite my friend.

As far as dyno data you are 100% correct again in that we have seen zero dyno data from Mr. Mixxer IN THE CONTEXT OF CRF230.  I find it incredibly interesting you call ME out on that but not him.  If you are going to criticize me for having no dyno data you MUST also criticize him.  If Mr. Mixxer knows all there is to know about CRF230 why did he get his cam from Terry?  Why does he not have his own magic cam grinds?  Where are HIS dyno sheets showing PC outperforms all other pipes on the market.  If Mr. Mixxer knows all there is to know about CRF230 why did he buy his pipe from PC?  Why does he not have his own magic pipe designs like Terry does?  My guess is Mr. Mixer is new to the XR200/CRf230 world but I could be very wrong there.  I say that because he tends not to give actual examples like Chuck and Terry almost always do.

The big players in the context of XR200/CRF230 are Mike Coe, Frank Nye, and Pete Fisher (Powroll).  As Mike and Pete are out of the picture that leaves R&D work with Frank and Terry and makes acquisition of ongoing data more spotty and difficult.  I guess we could look to Brazil but many in here have already called BS and/or dismissed some of those dyno numbers as well as claimed displacements.

For the record here is why I responded to Mr. Mixxer the way I did.  Number one I tend to be cynical in an effort to be funny and to make reading my long-winded writing more tolerable.  That obviously doesn't work for everybody but I could care less.  I probably should but I don't because I have nor affiliation with or obligation to ThumperTalk.  Number two instead of Mr. Mixxer implying I was creating fabricated information (for what purpose?) I would have expected him to have asked "are you sure about the results" and/or "how did you verify the results" and /or "is it possible we have some sort of anomaly or combination that gives mixed results".  His telling readers I was just trying to promote the EO system because it cost me $500 was just plain silly.

I have worked hard in this forum and my company has no affiliations with ANY of the vendors used here nor do I.  Unlike many we DO have two CRF230s at our disposal AND two test tracks in our back yards.  So while we have not done dyno runs (we have access to two locally) we do have very good test environments.  Besides all that dyno runs are not the tell-all source of how good an engine performs in a given context.  Lap times and track average and maximum speeds are a far superior indicator of engine performance.  Terry told me he once built three engines of identical displacement but of varying bore/stroke ratios.  He said the engines all produced nearly the same peak HP numbers but on the track results were very different.

Instead of comparing dyno sheets how about we compare customer and vendor references?  How about we compare credit lines, bank accounts, vertical pushups, etc.  Very silly indeed.  Perhaps YOU fund the entire project and give us two identical CRF230s and we ride them and see who can produce the fastest lap times?  This is all very silly and gives absolutely NOTHING back to our readers.

In fact I DO have a challenge for Mr. Mixxer and anybody and everybody else reading posts in these forums.  Please don't stop challenging sources of data and please don't stop asking questions.

My Target was to find the truth. You Mr. VortecCPI have always known your stuff about the 230f. But lets be honest...this time he had you biting folks ears off. You were Mike Tyson and he was Hollyfield. You know Mike was like F...it if i can't win. Don't blink CPI, I think you know more, but he won the debate.

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16 minutes ago, The goat said:

My Target was to find the truth. You Mr. VortecCPI have always known your stuff about the 230f. But lets be honest...this time he had you biting folks ears off. You were Mike Tyson and he was Hollyfield. You know Mike was like F...it if i can't win. Don't blink CPI, I think you know more, but he won the debate.

Off to church brother.  Keep seeking the truth...

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4 hours ago, The Plvis said:

Who's the winner when two verbal fights break out like what just happen with VortecCPI vs. Mixxer in the thread " CRF 230 Performance- Still Searching?"

Maybe I missed something but I didn't see this as a fight.  I saw it as a debate among two people who obviously have a lot of passion in the area.  I've seen plenty of verbal fights, both in real life and online (as I'm sure we all have) and I didn't ever see this get unprofessional or emotional.  I did see the discussion get very pointed but I believe that was the whole idea. 

 

4 hours ago, The Plvis said:

FANS LETS SEE WHO BLINK 1ST...

 

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way but I don't think we do ourselves any benefit by encouraging the perception that this is a competition of any sorts.  I'm sure there are a few folks in our little cult that DO look at things as a competition, either in terms of having the latest mod, having the most powerful engine, or having vast amounts of knowledge such that people look upon you like some great 230F sage.  A wise man on the mountain top if you will. 

We certainly have a few folks that have earned that distinction.  We've also seen a few folks who have tried to act like they have that knowledge when they really don't.  We're usually pretty good about identifying them and either serving them a dose of humble pie or watching them spiral out of control, burst into flames, and disappear.

But one of the benefits of our typical demographic here in Cult 230F is that most of us are older.  Some of us are new riders who always wanted a dirtbike but life always got in the way and they finally swung their leg over the saddle after the kids went off to college.  Some of us have pro-level championships in our past but realize that the older we get, the more we want the rides to last longer.  Going as fast as we can isn't as important anymore.  That, and bouncing back from injuries is a lot more difficult now!

But regardless of our past, most of us are older, calmer, and smarter.  Calm guys can sit around and bench race without emotion getting involved.  We can disagree with someone and someone can disagree with us and that's okay.  Somebody can tell me I'm wrong and that's fine.  They can present their view of the situation as evidence as to why they think I'm wrong.  I can counter those points and present other points.  Essentially, we can debate the topic.  Regardless of the outcome, we're both almost assuredly smarter for the effort, as are those who were able to observe the exchange.  There is occasionally a clear cut "winner" in these debates but not often.  The real winners are those who were able to look past the emotion and snarky one-liners and see the elements of truth within the discussion.  This is where the comment about being smarter comes in.

By smarter, I don't necessarily mean knowledgeable (although as previously stated, some folks certainly are).  I mean that we see the big picture more readily.  The fancy advertising doesn't work as easily.  We know that Mod A plus Mod B does not always equal HP X, but it's probably a good start.  Systems like vehicles and internal combustion engines are waaay too complex to paint into simple pictures.  Sure, there's some generalities we can keep in mind, but it's impossible to say that since John bolted on XYZ exhaust and it "feels like it added 2-3 hp!" that Jim will have the same result. 

I believe that characterizing the discussion between Vortec and Mixxer as anything more than a discussion does our entire sub-forum a discredit.  I don't want folks feeling like this place is a hostile environment.  This, among almost all of the other forums I've been a part of, is a place of learning first, egos never.  Let's not try to change that through the way we characterize discussions, even pointed ones, or by egging on others into some feeling that they have a challenge they need to rise to.  This will only come at the expense of our ability to freely exchange idea and maintain the high levels of knowledge we've been spoiled with here.

Edited by baglock1
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As stated several times I have nothing but respect for Mr. Mixxer and I am thrilled he has joined our odd little cult club.

I would suspect that he is often challenged with respect to his knowledge as are most all of us.  It happens to me on a daily basis and I always welcome it.  Conversely, I do the same to my competitors, partners, and product/service providers.  When challenged you have a unique opportunity to share information and the distinct possibility to gain valuable information.  If the data is complete and in context it can be extremely valuable.  If the data is incomplete and/out of context it can be extremely dangerous.  If key data points are missing the resulting conclusions can be devastatingly incorrect.

This is why we do things like current-state data and process capture whenever we tackle very large projects:

Example.jpg.c3a29ce3c52a4f3f0ce3dfaf7f58cba0.jpg

I have great respect for all the contributors in this forum and quite a few others in the XR200 forum.  I try very hard to do thorough testing and to share results based upon repeatable test conditions (i.e., our two CRF230s and our two test tracks).  That doesn't make all my data 100% correct but it does mean I strive to make it so.

I guess my beef with Mr. Mixxer is simply that I wished he had asked more questions so we could try to understand why the EO system works for some of us and not for others.  There is definitely a reason for that and I would like to try to better understand what it is.  Better yet, perhaps we can identify what we really have going on here.

Here is something else I am very curious about.  Why do people who have ridden with me in the past tell me my EO system seems no louder than the stock unplugged system?  Are they lying to me?  Doubtful.  I do have a dB meter in the garage but I have been too busy to test it nor do I care to because mine is not loud.  Again the big difference is I have an off-the-shelf 40mc/402 cam with Procom and thick stock head gasket where others are using one of Terry's custom grinds with thin head gasket.

This is all about curiosity and trying to understand why we have some very mixed results and feedback.  I don't care about being "right" but I do care about extending the knowledge in this forum in an effort to help others.

Edited by VortecCPI
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Sorry guys but realistic. How many here would or care or pay to put 230 on a Dyno. Maybe 1 in ten thousand Still I respect Mixxers Ideas and Vortecs. I will take someones Experience riding the bike real world any day over a dyno.  Lets just ride and forget the Baloney. All my experience with big stroker singles 650 680 716 820cc Is worthless when it comes to the 230,but fun factor is the same.  

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LOL, it's a dirt bike..... The one with the best looking wife in a bikini wins

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I'm still waiting for a pic of The Goat Pelvis' lengthened swingarm but I'm willing to look at bikini-clad women in the meantime.

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On 5/8/2017 at 10:10 PM, bajatrailrider said:

Sorry guys but realistic. How many here would or care or pay to put 230 on a Dyno. Maybe 1 in ten thousand Still I respect Mixxers Ideas and Vortecs. I will take someones Experience riding the bike real world any day over a dyno.  Lets just ride and forget the Baloney. All my experience with big stroker singles 650 680 716 820cc Is worthless when it comes to the 230,but fun factor is the same.  

If HP was the sheer dictator and indicator of performance in our real world applications there is no way on Earth a CRF230 could keep a CR125 or YZ125  in sight in the woods.  Heck, even a CR80 makes more HP than a CRF230.  Yet any time I see one of these things they can't go most of the places we go with relative ease.  They are always spinning or stalling.

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2 hours ago, 1gr8bldr said:

1st entry. Not a bikini though

My wife when she was about twenty with the XR100 I bought her for her birthday.  This would have been about 1988 hence the crazy 80s hair.  That old XR100 was still running strong when her nephew was done with it.  Great bikes.

333717_2476081904896_1337936276_3766523_1329856738_o - Copy.jpg

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57 minutes ago, VortecCPI said:

My wife when she was about twenty with the XR100 I bought her for her birthday.  This would have been about 1988 hence the crazy 80s hair.  That old XR100 was still running strong when her nephew was done with it.  Great bikes.

333717_2476081904896_1337936276_3766523_1329856738_o - Copy.jpg

Are you serious... you actually have a dirt bike/bikini combo picture

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10 hours ago, 1gr8bldr said:

Are you serious... you actually have a dirt bike/bikini combo picture

I'm old and was an amateur photographer.  I have lots of pictures.

Be careful what you ask for...

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4 minutes ago, baglock1 said:

I think as long as you don't post the pictures of YOU in a bikini, we'll be fine. 

Don't worry and rest assured brother because that will never happen...

Some of my old classic cameras and glass...

59145ebbda41c_Picture141.jpg.b25299072c51c8fca60444dad813f3cf.jpg

And my old human-powered dirt bike:

59145f66479fb_Picture243.jpg.4f1e8f3689d5298c9edecd8b4466d15b.jpg

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