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Metal in my oil... 2001 XR200R

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Bought my first dirt bike the other day. It was blowing smoke so I knew I was gonna need rings. So I have it tore down and have a few questions the metal in my oil is come from the cam chain rubbing slapping the housing20170513_003353.jpg

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Also looking for advice on weather or not I should replace some of these other parts as they seem to me marked up pretty good. I know I will need rings, piston, and whatever is making the cam/timing chain rub. chain ,guide ,tensioner or all 3 . Just not sure about the cam, the valves, and the rod as they are showing some odd wear marks. And I think someone has recently been in this motor, how many rings are there as I think one is missing that's 2nd one down. Thanks in advance for any help or tips you can throw my way.20170513_003446.jpg20170513_003416.jpg20170513_003427.jpg20170513_001420.jpg20170513_001428.jpg20170513_001437.jpg20170513_003314.jpg20170513_003535.jpg20170513_003541.jpg20170513_003630.jpg20170513_003300.jpg20170513_003353.jpg

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The classic case of ......lack of basic maintenance.  With the looks of things I have to wonder what the condition of the cam, cam bearing surfaces and rocker arms are in...........any pics?  Also maybe a close up pic of cylinder wall finish......?

Old School Al

Edited by Old School Al

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To me the piston looks to be in decent condition, but at the end of the day, you should take to a machine shop to have them check with

a bore micrometer to see if the cylinder is out of round and go from there, might just need to be rehoned and install fresh rings.

 

My biggest concern from the photo's is the upper portion of the connecting rod, there are some some serious gouges in there, not to

mention the wrist pin wore off a good portion of it's chrome plating, better mechanics would be able to determine if that is acceptable,

to me it is border line that would need to be cleaned up and smoothed out. 

 

Ya, you were definitely burning some oil, but it could have been due to valve seals as well as the rings.

 

Michael 

 

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Your all ready at 66mm so at the realistic service limit of the cylinder.

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Thanks for the advice. I think I'm gonna go up a size in the piston and he a shop hone it out and I was also curious about the wear on conecting rod

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The classic case of ......lack of basic maintenance.  With the looks of things I have to wonder what the condition of the cam, cam bearing surfaces and rocker arms are in...........any pics?  Also maybe a close up pic of cylinder wall finish......?
Old School Al

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Cylinder wall

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Need a close up across the top or bottom of the cylinder catching the actual surface of the cyl wall in fine detail. 

Old School Al

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I believe OSA is looking for any potential ridges, so he needs a (2) photo's one directly from the top and one directly from the bottom. A couple of photos from side to side would not hurt. Chadzu is pointing out that your existing piston has the markings of a 66 mm piston and it is not recommended to go any further due to thin cylinder walls, overheating being the culprit. 

I would still let a machine shop get some bore mic's on it to measure for out of roundness, that is a big factor, which if it were to far out, it would require either a bore job, not recommended,  as previously stated by Chadzu, or getting a salvageable cylinder that can be safely bored out @ 66mm, or potentially a 65.5mm with just a light hone, again to me piston looks fine, speculating that is a Wiseco Piston and just getting rings for a 66mm piston. 

Your best case scenario is the just needing a hone and fresh rings, worst is replacement cylinder and fresh rings. The upper con rod looks suspect to me and I would be inclined to take that to a Shop and get their opinion. If they say it is fubar'd, that would require to have the cases split and it might not be worth rebuilding, only your wallet can make that determination. 

Michael  

 

 

 

 

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On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 1:14 PM, KTM520EXC said:

I believe OSA is looking for any potential ridges, so he needs a (2) photo's one directly from the top and one directly from the bottom. A couple of photos from side to side would not hurt. Chadzu is pointing out that your existing piston has the markings of a 66 mm piston and it is not recommended to go any further due to thin cylinder walls, overheating being the culprit. 

I would still let a machine shop get some bore mic's on it to measure for out of roundness, that is a big factor, which if it were to far out, it would require either a bore job, not recommended,  as previously stated by Chadzu, or getting a salvageable cylinder that can be safely bored out @ 66mm, or potentially a 65.5mm with just a light hone, again to me piston looks fine, speculating that is a Wiseco Piston and just getting rings for a 66mm piston. 

Your best case scenario is the just needing a hone and fresh rings, worst is replacement cylinder and fresh rings. The upper con rod looks suspect to me and I would be inclined to take that to a Shop and get their opinion. If they say it is fubar'd, that would require to have the cases split and it might not be worth rebuilding, only your wallet can make that determination. 

Michael  

 

 

 

 

Actually what I was hoping to see was a close up of the cylinder wall finish 90 degrees to the bore................actual surface rings are running on.

The sleeve being considered too thin over around 66.00mm is a strength problem as the bottom spigot of the cylinder will crack under piston side thrust load.  I have a couple ebay 200X cyls at 67mm that have done this.  As far as cooling, I would wonder if the thinner cast in sleeve would run cooler as the piston is closer to aluminum which dissipates heat better than cast iron alloy.

Old School Al 

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OSA, solid point on the thrust load, if my mathematics are correct, for every .50mm increase in bore, the compression ratio is raised ~.25, so a 67mm would be closer to 10:75 in

compression, hence producing more heat, do the additional horsepower and torque, however as stated in many posts the liner is extremely thin. As I remember, Terry does not

recommend anything greater than 66mm, which is more in line with your thrust load experience, than the overheating issue, either way, both are not conducive of a long lasting motor.

 

Michael 

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Need a close up across the top or bottom of the cylinder catching the actual surface of the cyl wall in fine detail. 
Old School Al

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Perfect..................and here is the telltale clue to why your engine was smoking!:thumbsup: This is a perfect example of a blotched bore job and cylinder wall finish causing oil burning I preach about.:prof:  New rings will do absolutely nothing to help here..............new bore job with correct finishing is the cure.  See those little grooves/scratches around the circumference of the bore? These are boring marks left from boring the cylinder.  Oil rings on a cyl with boring marks are just like a squeegee on a window with scratches....................rings can't clean the oil off the cylinder wall and oil ends up in the combustion chamber! When a cylinder is bored, you bore say .002 - .003 (depending on boring machine finish) under final desired size, and hone to final size.  By doing this you remove all the boring marks, and the final bore has proper clearance, and a nice smooth finish.  Now, if you were to try to hone to remove the boring marks, you would end up with too much piston to cyl clearance.  The fix is another cylinder and a fresh bore done properly.  Blotched bore jobs of varying degrees are very, very common it's sad to say..................even by supposedly reputable shops!:excuseme:

Also I notice scratches vertically on the piston that are most likely from dirt through the air filter.  The rod is toasted and needs replaced.

And.......a example why not to use silicone (and too much) on the top cover!  See all those little bits breaking loose to clog oil passages. Best to use Honda Bond......sparingly.

Wish I could be the bearer of better news................

Old School Al

Edited by Old School Al

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Thank you very much for your insight Old School. This the reason I wanted an opinion from someone who knows what the hell your talking about. I have about 400 in the bike do you have a wild guess as to how much more it's gonna cost me. This is my first dirt bike I never rode with the exception of taking a buddy's for a spin because I'm to damn short to touch the ground on most bikes that have any power.

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A lot will depend on what you can find for "usable" used parts ( crank, cyl etc.) and what you can get them for.  What is the condition of the camshaft and the bearing surfaces in the head.....?  

I hear you on seat height.............!:thumbsup:

Old School Al

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If it were me, I would part it out and try to get your money back out of it, probably lot's of very good bits.

Cylinder Head - $75 / Seat if no tears - $75-$100 / Tank $75 to $125 / Electronics - $50+ / Cases, etc.. $75 to $200.

It will take time to move it all, but I think that might be your best bet, other than getting a good used motor, which 

is very hard to find for a reasonable amount of $$$. I would think a Shop would charge you close $600 on the low

end $900 on the high end and from what I can see from all other work that it needs done, i.e. tires, etc. I think it

is cost prohibitive. 

 

I was in a similar situation with a 1990 that I purchased, it definitely needed a full rebuild, needed new tires and a whole

bunch of other bits. I bought it for $200, got $200 for the rolling frame and carburetor and was able to use a few bits for my

other (3) XR200R's, so I broke even. Was able to pay forward some crank cases to Chuck, which I was happy to do. I still

have the side cases, cylinder and the electronics, so just in case I crack an outer case, or have an electronic problem, I have

back ups, so in the end I did OK. 

 

Michael 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The shop fees are low for me as a good friend has a machine shop and can do that end of it and he is good at what he does

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try and find a xr185 cyl.  You can have it machined for a standard size 200 piston and have full rebuild options down the road.  If your friend can press the crank apart you can pick up a rod and fix it reasonably.

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