New Beta - frothy tranny oil

[hifihunter]

Have a new Beta 2 Stroke (300) with 8 hrs on the clock.  I pulled the oil 'check plug' today and frothy oil came out.  I've done some reading and from what I can tell, there are (2) causes for this:

1) H2O Pump gasket is leaking coolant into the tranny

2) Somehow the tranny sucked in water during water crossings - I have been through some water with the bike, nothing deep, but normal deep puddles  (maybe 12inch deep max) and of course washing the bike with normal garden hose.

I have a couple of question for those with more experience wrenching on 2Ts that I....

1st - what are the ways that a tranny can suck water into itself?  I do not see a vent hose coming from the tranny but may be missing it.

2nd - As far as the H2O Pump gasket potentially leaking into the oil - The coolant level in the rad. has not dropped significantly; but I guess it is possible that it has dropped a little from when new and I imagine it would not take much coolant to cause frothy oil when the tranny is in operation.  Is there any good way to rule this in or out?

I welcome any additional thoughts you guys have - like everyone else, I was planning to ride most of the Memorial weekend with my buds, so it would be great if I could isolate this quickly and get 'er up and going.  I am definitely going to change the Tranny Oil but for reasons that are obvious, I need to resolve the issue before I put new Motul back in - otherwise, it will just continue to happen.

Edited May 27, 2017 by hifihunter

[FORMA MOTO]

A failed water pump seal would put oil into the coolant path, and the radiators, which is easy to check; run the motor, then take off the cap before it gets to boiling, and look for oil residue.

Otherwise, I don't see how you could get oil in the trans without getting water above the cases, and even then you would have to have a bad breather tube, and you would have to stall or start the motor while submerged.

[hifihunter]

ok, well the bike definitely hasn't been stalled or started in water.  Where is the breather tube for the tranny anyway?  I do not see one (yet).

 - so the oil will surface to the top of the radiator when warm and will be visible?  If I drained the radiator into a bucket, I image that would make it easy to see as well.  What is the fix for the H2O Pump, if that is the issue? 

If I understand you correctly though, this still doesn't explain what made the oil frothy.  I'll try to attach a picture of the gear oil so you can see what I am seeing.

Edited May 27, 2017 by hifihunter

[hifihunter]

58 minutes ago, hifihunter said:

ok, well the bike definitely hasn't been stalled or started in water.  Where is the breather tube for the tranny anyway?  I do not see one (yet).

 - so the oil will surface to the top of the radiator when warm and will be visible?  If I drained the radiator into a bucket, I image that would make it easy to see as well.  What is the fix for the H2O Pump, if that is the issue? 

If I understand you correctly though, this still doesn't explain what made the oil frothy.  I'll try to attach a picture of the gear oil so you can see what I am seeing.

OK, after more searching on the site here.. I was able to find a post from another similar inquiry from the past.  This was the interesting portion that I am pasteing below for others to see:

--

" 1. somehow you've gotta introduce water into the trans. Do you wade through streams on your bike that are engine height deep or deeper?

If you do, the hot engine gets cooled from the stream, the cooling engines breather tube when underwater sucks in water from the stream or whatever and you get the water in the trans.

Another way is to some how plug the weep hole in the water pump. When the water pump seal fails, the water doesn't freely flow out, the other seal seals the water pump drive from the transmission side and it isnt designed to keep stuff out, it keeps stuff in. So the cooling system pressure pushes the water into the trans pretty easily."

---

 

I am now thinking that the statement above may explain what happened to me as I did do a number of foot deep-ish water crossings during my last ride and while I definitely did not stall or start the bike in the water, I imagine my breather hoses could have been under water at some point.  Anyway, I think I'll drain the oil and replace with new and then re-route my breather hoses from the bottom to somewhere higher. 

 

If anyone has a good idea for how and where best to route your breather hoses from the carb and tranny, etc. up away from where water can easily come in, I welcome your thoughts.  Again, this is a 2017 Beta 300.  Thanks!

 

[Raging Petunia]

I had a similar issue with my '17 500 rrs . I changed the oil and am trying to put a couple hours on it then I'm going to dump the oil and coolant as take a look. I am going to put silicone hoses at the same time. I definitely went through high water but never over the pipe. My coolant seems to have dropped as well. here is a pic of my oil. I will also say that both of the o-rings on the oil fill plugs were bad and cracked which could of let in the water. I'll keep track of this tread and post if I find anything out.

[Marco the Pool Boy]

I had what could have been considered frothy looking trans oil in my new (at the time) 450. startled me, but I drained completely and added fresh oil and never saw that milkshake concoction ever again, but this happened to a 4-stroke...

[FORMA MOTO]

39 minutes ago, Mark-us-B said:

I had what could have been considered frothy looking trans oil in my new (at the time) 450. startled me, but I drained completely and added fresh oil and never saw that milkshake concoction ever again, but this happened to a 4-stroke...

That is a good point, as my stock oil was junk, and went all 'bubbly' after one ride.  I changed it before 2 hours.  It never did that again....until the water pump seal failed at 72 hours.

 

[Weezer the Geezer]

Do the simple things 1st.  Change the oil and see if it happens again.

[hifihunter]

Thanks guys, going to change the oil, re-routed the relevant vent tubes higher (simple deal) and I will ride today and see how it goes.  I'll report back with my findings.  Happy Memorial Weekend to everyone - get out and ride!

 

[hifihunter]

Do the simple things 1st.  Change the oil and see if it happens again.

By the way, lots 'o water in the gear oil. Check this out:



Do you guys think it makes sense to fill her up with a cheap oil, run for 10 min and then drain again before putting the Motul Epert in???

[hifihunter]

By the way, lots 'o water in the gear oil. Check this out:



Do you guys think it makes sense to fill her up with a cheap oil, run for 10 min and then drain again before putting the Motul Epert in???

Ok, just filled gearbox with 850mL (per spec) of Castrol GTX that I had on hand. Ran the bike through a heat cycle and road a round through the gears a few times. Drained the tranny and this is what that oil looked like:



I think I'm good to go - going refill with Motul Transpil Expert and just focus my attention on making the bike more water resistant during water crossings. I welcome any recommendations on that part.

[Weezer the Geezer]

 The water may have been there from the factory or dealer.  I've seen stranger things happen with new stuff.

[hifihunter]

 The water may have been there from the factory or dealer.  I've seen stranger things happen with new stuff.

Nah - this came into the tranny from water crossings I think. Where do you guys re-route the breather that leads to the top/left side of the engine? The one that drips spooge.

I looped the bowl overflow/vent and ran it down to the orig. location (swingarm).

I re-routed the (4) carby vents to under the seat. How does this look?

[hifihunter]

Nah - this came into the tranny from water crossings I think. Where do you guys re-route the breather that leads to the top/left side of the engine? The one that drips spooge.

I looped the bowl overflow/vent and ran it down to the orig. location (swingarm).

I re-routed the (4) carby vents to under the seat. How does this look?

This is the vent (center of pic) I'm not sure what to do with and how to re-route higher... the hose drips spooge, so I need to be a little careful where it terminates. I currently have it routing down along front left frame and to skid plate - it is directly were you would enter any 12" deep water

[ohiodrz400sm]

That is a good point, as my stock oil was junk, and went all 'bubbly' after one ride.  I changed it before 2 hours.  It never did that again....until the water pump seal failed at 72 hours.
 

I has told by 2 different dealers that the oil in the engine as delivered was for shipping purposes only and it would be changed during the setup of the bike.

[Old Plonker]

7 hours ago, hifihunter said:

This is the vent I'm not sure what to do with and how to re-route higher... the hose drips spooge, so I need to be a little careful where it terminates. I currently have it routing down along front left frame and to skid plate - it is directly were you would enter any 12" deep water

I learned a long time ago that splitting vent hoses with tee fittings lets you run vents both up and down, so that whether your bike flips upside down, or just cruises through tank-deep water, the lines have access to atmosphere.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Old Plonker

[hifihunter]

That's super - thanks

[Johnny Depp]

4 hours ago, hifihunter said:

 

 

This is the vent (center of pic) I'm not sure what to do with and how to re-route higher... the hose drips spooge, so I need to be a little careful where it terminates. I currently have it routing down along front left frame and to skid plate - it is directly were you would enter any 12" deep water

 

This picture is of the power valve spooge line, not the crankcase vent. It would be found behind the clutch and under the carb routed down to the swingarm area. Did you double check your O-rings on the cap?

Edited May 27, 2017 by Johnny Depp

[hifihunter]

This picture is of the power valve spooge line, not the crankcase vent. It would be found behind the clutch and under the carb routed down to the swingarm area. Did you double check your O-rings on the cap?

Thanks, is their any scenario where that power Valve vent would have sucked in water during a crossing?

yes the O-Ring on the gear oil fill cap is good.

I do not see a vent for the crankcase where you describe. Is that a red vent hose (as with the carb vents) or is it different? A picture would be awesome if you can swing it.

[Johnny Depp]

No the power valve area is not connected to the transmission oil. Can't help with the photo I have a four stroke but it is a black thicker hose near the cylinder base on mine