Engine fades out on hard climbs

[RedMesa]

On very steep sustained climbs, running up around 3/4 throttle, the bike will just fade out like it is running out of gas. It just... stops responding to the throttle and quietly dies. Don’t know how else to describe it.

It starts up again right away. Flow through the fuel filter is good.

I have tried to reproduce the problem on shorter climbs, but it seems to take at least one minute of sustained hard load. Not full throttle due to rocks and wheel spin, but running hard and under very heavy load.

This is at altitudes of 6000 to 9000 ft. Plug is dark, but I have not done a formal plug chop test.

Running 105 main which is about 2 sizes lean for the IntelliJet. IJ is generally 2 to 3 turns out. The IJ is a confounding factor: never quite sure what it is doing if anything. Could be the source of the problem.

Nothing like this happened when the bike was running with 132 main and the power up kit. I am half tempted to go back the original setup which always worked perfectly despite using this ridiculously rich jet. The only thing I would keep is the ProCom box.  

Here are all my configs in more detail

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mEsw891e5HUdLIrq4yYQzm2QCsRgK-ihDkrL_fu7_iA/pub#h.8r4ly818eox1

Any suggestions welcome. The bike is working so well in every other respect that this is frustrating and it is time to consult the gurus.

[adnohguy]

Cant even guess what an Intellijet is....

 

Sounds like you have already answered your own question.

 

You didn't say anything about checking the float level or what year your bike is....guessing it's a 230f ?

 

So, you probably don't want to hear it but a 132 main jet at 6,000~ 9,000 ft elevation ???? U running nitrous, a blower or a turbo? (That's totally ridiculous, the 132 and nitrous, a blower or a turbo with a stock 230f with a ProCom.

 

Obviously, your not using a 2005~ older needle in the middle slot for that altitude.

 

I ride my 262cc 230f at that same exact altitude with the correct needle, in the fourth slot from the top, (second from the bottom) wth a 50 pilot and a 135 main jet. My engine is the complete opposite of stock in every way and runs perfectly.

[1gr8bldr]

If I recall, the intelijet is only capable of increasing a little. At best, your equivalent is 110. That's lean. But beside the point. It should run at that. Does it lose power or die of fuel starvation. Or possible bog of flooding. The pivot to the floats, uphill would allow more fuel to enter the bowl than it would level. I don't know, just thinking out loud, baiting in some thoughts for someone whom might figure it out

Edited May 30, 2017 by 1gr8bldr

[Oil Baron]

Gas tank not venting?

[VortecCPI]

Sounds like you are sucking the bowl dry.

[tjon]

12 hours ago, adnohguy said:

.

 

 

You didn't say anything about checking the float level or what year your bike is....guessing it's a 230f ?

 

So he's going to post in the CRF230f forum if he has a Kawasaki 150? Why do you always have to be such a dick?

[VortecCPI]

34 minutes ago, tjon said:

So he's going to post in the CRF230f forum if he has a Kawasaki 150? Why do you always have to be such a dick?

This is a 150/230 forum.  Guy was asking which it is likely because the carbs are different.

[adnohguy]

So he's going to post in the CRF230f forum if he has a Kawasaki 150? Why do you always have to be such a dick.

 

Oh, my bad, I thought this was the Freeride Forum. Seems to be the topic of the year lately.

And:

Learn something new everyday, was not aware that Kawasaki even made a 150?

 

When they start making those ?

 

 

There is a difference between a HONDA 05- older & 06 - newer, 230's and 150's

 

BUT most people already know that. Trolls may not?

[RedMesa]

> time to consult the gurus

The grumpy gurus ? Need to get Mixxer in here for some Venom.

Anyway, I am going to go up 4 sizes on the main. Will continue to document. 

Thanks

[motrock93b]

Sounds like you are sucking the bowl dry.

This is an important point. I'd check the float level before changing a bunch of things. Especially if your bike is running well other than the prolonged hill climbs. Jetting requirements don't change from the base of a hill to the top, assuming a constant grade hill and throttle position.

Good luck!

[RedMesa]

Yes, my float level is correct, confirmed with tube test. I went up to 112 main because the plug actually was a little light. 

Yesterday I was doing short steep climbs over very rough rocks and sometimes a small jump at the top. A couple times the engine would start to die as the bike landed, then recover. Something going on in that float bowl. Yes, I have the little plastic ring in place around the main jet.

[Oil Baron]

Pull fuel line and see if fuel drains continuously out of tank.

[motrock93b]

Pull fuel line and see if fuel drains continuously out of tank.

Also, you may have some form of fuel tank vapor lock. Especially if you have one of those "trick" stubby billet fuel tank hoses. Pull your tank vent hose off and blow through your cap. If it's clear, leave the vent hose off and try the same hill. I've seen more than one bike with this problem.

Good luck!

[adnohguy]

Yes, my float level is correct, confirmed with tube test. I went up to 112 main because the plug actually was a little light.  Yesterday I was doing short steep climbs over very rough rocks and sometimes a small jump at the top. A couple times the engine would start to die as the bike landed, then recover. Something going on in that float bowl. Yes, I have the little plastic ring in place around the main jet.    

 

 Well you posted that it runs great with a 132 main.Then you stated that you had to install a 112 because it actually showed that the plug was a little light.  What are you trying to achieve, I mean seriously?

 

It's really no secret on how to jet an uncorked 230f correctly. (Meaning it runs much better than bone stock, while making more power than stock, and "anyone's" butt dyno can actually feel the difference easily)

 

So far it sounds like the float level is correct, and it seems like everyone so far believes that the ProCom is not the problem.

Maybe it could be the needle or main jet if they are different than what works best on literally, more than likely, hundreds of stock but uncorked crf230f's ?

 

Maybe it's the intellijet, (what ever that is) never heard of one of those ever before?

Maybe share that information on TT and maybe ask a question to all other TT posters that use one on the 230f to find out if there bikes run great at 9,000 foot elevation with a 132 main jet but shows on the spark plug that's it's lean with a 112 main jet.

 

Im guessing that your still riding at 6~9,000 elevation?

At what is the average outside air temperature that you ride in?

Is it safe to assume that your air filter is clean and properly oiled?

Engine valves properly adjusted?

New, properly gapped NGK spark plug installed?

 

Maybe you can have your jetting evaluated on a dyno that uses a 3 or 4 gas exhaust analyzer to confirm that your jetting choice is spot on, lean or rich at all rpm's?

Maybe, at least, use a "wide band" O2 sensor while your riding the bike using all gears and throttle settings to confirm your choice of jetting is close, spot on, or way to Rich or lean.

 

 

 

 

 

[Chuck.]

It is difficult to remotely solve jetting issues via the internet, but several things can help: 
All jets and carb parts should be genuine Keihin because they are what most others on this forum use, which enables all of us to work from the same baseline.  Non Keihin parts are not the same quality and can affect jetting, and some Chinese ebay parts/kits have no markings.
And posting up all pertinent information. And we are sometimes negligent in not requesting missing information. 

Jetting these, and other Hondas, is pretty cut and tried with lots of info available for various modifications. When jetted correctly for the riding conditions and mods the engines will run good if nothing else is wrong. So mixture issues can help ID other problems.
I've used Honda altitude and temp corrections for decades and they work, it is all about air density. 

Intellijet (sp) is aftermarket jetting that is not widely used, so not much info on this forum. 

If you want remote diagnoses for jetting issues you need to run a set up that others can relate to, then this forum becomes a great resource. The alternative is spending more time and money to learn more about jetting than you may want.

 

[1gr8bldr]

11 hours ago, RedMesa said:

Yes, my float level is correct, confirmed with tube test. I went up to 112 main because the plug actually was a little light. 

Yesterday I was doing short steep climbs over very rough rocks and sometimes a small jump at the top. A couple times the engine would start to die as the bike landed, then recover. Something going on in that float bowl. Yes, I have the little plastic ring in place around the main jet.

I don't expect it to be jetting. After running a broad range of jets, they all worked. It's just that one was a weeeeeeee bit better. Stalling on the landing after a hill climb is common. I have never seen the fix for it posted. Seen lots of talk about it. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by 1gr8bldr

[sneaky98gt]

I had a very very similar issue with my bike the first time I took it legit riding in the mountains a few months back.

On longer-ish, steeper-ish hill climbs, it'd cut out towards the top of the climb.  Stop, give it a few seconds, hit the e-start, it'd fire right back up and be 100% till the next time I got to a long hill climb.  It was definitely sucking the bowl dry, for whatever reason.

Well, after determining that the float level, fuel line, and gas vent tube were all fine, the issue wound up being the carburetor vent tube.  The particular day we were riding, it was very wet and muddy, and the previous owner had put new carb hoses on the bike, of which were much too long.  The vent hose was hanging a couple inches down below the shock linkage.  When this thought crossed my mind, I checked the hoses, and sure enough, they were almost completely caked in mud.  I cut the hoses shorter such that they only fall part-way down the back of the engine case, and haven't had a single issue since, and I've ridden a LOT since then.

So check to make sure your carb vent hose is free and clear.

[RedMesa]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:33 AM, sneaky98gt said:

So check to make sure your carb vent hose is free and clear.

This can definitely be a problem, from either mud or submersion in water. Mine has a "T-mod" with a snorkel going up under the seat for water crossings. All this checks out clear and flowing air.

I rechecked the float level with a clear tube and it overflowed. After tapping on the bowl, the level settled at the carb/bowl line.

So it seems like the float / valve is occasionally sticking open and possibly closed. What do people replace for this? The needle valve ("VALVE SET, FLOAT") is about $40 and the float is $20. Doesn't look like the valve seat is available separately.

Thanks all for the replies.

[VortecCPI]

26 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

This can definitely be a problem, from either mud or submersion in water. Mine has a "T-mod" with a snorkel going up under the seat for water crossings. All this checks out clear and flowing air.

I rechecked the float level with a clear tube and it overflowed. After tapping on the bowl, the level settled at the carb/bowl line.

So it seems like the float / valve is occasionally sticking open and possibly closed. What do people replace for this? The needle valve ("VALVE SET, FLOAT") is about $40 and the float is $20. Doesn't look like the valve seat is available separately.

Thanks all for the replies.

Look for any crud/junk along the float needle edges and along the float needle receptacle.  Sometimes just a tiny bit will cause it to hang up.

[Oil Baron]

Could be the float, itself, sticking.