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300 excited too vs 450f?

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Sorry about the title. I've tried to edit it like 10 times and it just won't fix...

 

This is more just a point of contention or something that upsets me a little. I've always loved two strokes. My next bike without a doubt will be the 2019 TPI.

But it just irks me a little that they don't make a 380 or larger 2-stroke anymore. I've noticed the horsepower ratings in the 300 is dead even with the 450 F. To me this means KTM took away the 380 simply to not put out a bike that is cheaper with more power than a 450 F. The advantages of a 450 F if you want to call them that, are quite clear. Was the 380 really taking away from 450 F sales? I've only been back into riding less than a year so maybe this has been done to death. And I'm really excited that KTM is still innovating in the two stroke Market. Don't get me wrong. But with the new fuel injection what could be better than a high horsepower 380 or higher two-stroke? I feel like KTM is always giving people what they want. But they're hung up on this for some reason and it kind of pisses me off. Just seems like a flat dick move out of the sales department. A bunch of people in suits deciding the 450 F has to be the baddest bike. I thought that was already sort of proven in Motocross? Why not give us what we want in Enduro? Especially when they have a 2-stroke 250. The 300 is in no man's land. What's the point of a 50cc bump? A few more horsepower than the 250? Why not a 380 and give it a 10 to 15 horsepower boost? Am I right that this is clearly hindered by the 450 F? Anybody have any thoughts on this? Is the consensus that the 380 was unneeded?

 

 

 

 

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I believe, completely without scientific basis, that the KTM 200, 250 and 300 XCW have the same peak HP. Or within too small to care. But each larger bike has more torque. With a 200, you have to keep stirring the gears. With the 250, there is more torque. With a current 300, there is all the torque you could ask for.

I don't see "a few more horsepower" at all.

I ride woods, tight technical stuff. There is no way I could use more HP than my 300 has.
I'm just happy that KTM, Beta, GasGas and Sherco are still selling 300 two strokes, and not letting the four-stroke fascists claim clean air needs lots of valves

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Something bigger than a 300 would be great.  I ride at really high elevation and found a stock 300 to be pretty anemic.

After doing just about every engine mod there is for a 300, I'm pretty happy with it, but i'd be nice to be able to buy something stock that can make big power at elevation.

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Well I would like the extra power for sure. I am glad they're keeping up the innovation of course. I just don't see the point of the 300 over 250. I guess you like a little bit more torque. And I get that. I have a kx500 and I would love a company to make a bike that can replace it. I actually tight single track my KX in western Washington. Set it up right and I think it's a great trail bike. Lighter than any modern Bike 250 and up, it lugs under idle. Sprocket gearing has made it a tractor. Man I love A380 or 450 2 stroke with fuel injection

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The 300's intended purpose is completely different than a 450. The 300 is an offroad bike that's at home on technical offroad that a 450 would stuggle on. I think any of the current 300's, regardless of brand, are some of the best offroad bikes ever made. Compared to a 250, I don't know why someone would even choose the 250...the same weight, same top-end power, but more low-mid power...sounds like a winning choice to me. A 400ish 2 stroke likely wouldn't be able to share the same bottom end like a 250/300...more expense and weight for a new model. 

 

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Well they made a 380 that I've written and I think was their best bike. Why they went down to a 300 I'll never know. It couldn't have cost much more or add that much weight. It had noticeably more power than than 250 and the 300 and much more torque. I thought it was just as good on the trails.

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12 minutes ago, Sierra_rider said:

The 300's intended purpose is completely different than a 450. The 300 is an offroad bike that's at home on technical offroad that a 450 would stuggle on. I think any of the current 300's, regardless of brand, are some of the best offroad bikes ever made. Compared to a 250, I don't know why someone would even choose the 250...the same weight, same top-end power, but more low-mid power...sounds like a winning choice to me. A 400ish 2 stroke likely wouldn't be able to share the same bottom end like a 250/300...more expense and weight for a new model. 

 

Because most guys that buy 300's like to lug around and use the low and mid range. Try getting on it in the woods like a 250 and guys end up in the ER lol. Unless your a Jarvis or walker. I amost bought a 300 but I like winding out my 250 and where I ride it's got plenty of balls. 

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Imagine if they came out with a two stroke 450. 

It would make so much power it would embarrass the four stroke 450 motocross bikes. We'd buy em and blow the four strokers right off the tracks. People would start lobbying to bring 450 two strokes into motocross.  The AMA would be put into their place for doing everything they could to kill two strokes off. 

The new EFI two strokes with oil injection burn clean. So they EPA and the California fruitcakes would have nothing to cry or protest about. 

I wish KTM would make a 450 two stroke. I know 380 would be power enough, but the media storm that would be erupt over a 450 2 stroke vs 4 stroke would start alot of talks in the right direction. 

2 stroke is a superior engine technology and now that KTM and Beta have greatly expanded the technology, it's damn time to get two strokes back in motocross. 

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Hey man I agree 100%. I take anything up to a 500. Just a stick with the more modern CiCi's, I would love a 450 2 stroke. I wouldn't hesitate I Would by One the first year and not even wait for the second year bugs. Just to support them. Why does everybody talk about California and the EPA? Will they not sell Two Strokes there? I thought for off-road you get away with almost anything. I'm in Washington and we're pretty crazy about our air quality and I can drive any two-stroke on the street as long as I do things for the lighting and tires.
But I'm with you 100%. I would kill For a light Nimble two-stroke 450. Demolishing anything out there. With EFI in the smooth ER Power Band it would be unstoppable

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With custom mapping you could totally tame the 0 to 1/4 throttle of a 450 2t and go balls to the wall after that. You could pretty much do anything. All the power you can want and totally controllable. I love my 500. Wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm a bigger guy, 632 40. So I get that it's not for everybody. But with custom mapping in the light weight of a two-stroke. Any smaller guy could ride the bike and have all that power for the midden top-end. It be the funnest bike ever

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Last big 2 stroke I had was a husky 430. Talk about power. If you just breathed on the throttle the front end would come up and you could ride a wheelie like nobody's business. And it had a lot of low end for trail riding. I miss the big 2 strokes. 

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3 hours ago, Southernend said:

Because most guys that buy 300's like to lug around and use the low and mid range. Try getting on it in the woods like a 250 and guys end up in the ER lol. Unless your a Jarvis or walker. I amost bought a 300 but I like winding out my 250 and where I ride it's got plenty of balls. 

Pretty common knowledge that the 300's and 250's are pretty dang close on peak power. If you can ride a 250 on the pipe in the woods, you should be able to do the same on the 300.

I'm not really a lugger, but like to have that option when I'm riding hard enduro type terrain. IMO, the 300's are actually quite easy to ride slow or fast.

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Pretty common knowledge that the 300's and 250's are pretty dang close on peak power. If you can ride a 250 on the pipe in the woods, you should be able to do the same on the 300.

I'm not really a lugger, but like to have that option when I'm riding hard enduro type terrain. IMO, the 300's are actually quite easy to ride slow or fast.

 

That's the problem. I get why they make 250s, Cuz the parts are interchangeable with the racing bikes. But a 300? At least make it 380. Don't know why they kept the 300 and got rid of it 380 instead of the other way around. Other than to satisfy my last Theory. They don't want a cheaper less expensive bike making more horsepower than the 450. And although I love KTM, I consider it a dick move. still less Dick's than all the other companies who gave up on two strokes. But a dick move none the less.

My next bike is going to be a real tough decision. I need something new because the KX 500 is becoming hard to find parts for. But it's going to be tough to buy down to a 300. Going to miss that 15 horse. Man I hope some company surprises me soon, but I won't hold my breath. I'm sure the 300 is an amazing bike. It makes as much power as the 450 s so it's probably what I'll get.

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Any manufacturer could make a 350/400 2t, it wouldn't sell. Sure, a few guys would buy them but the nostalgia would wear quick over time. Today's 450s put out more power then any 500 2t and do it over a broader range...

And no, a KX500 is not lighter then any current 250 (and up) made... 

Edited by Monk
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9 minutes ago, Eppidemic said:

 

That's the problem. I get why they make 250s, Cuz the parts are interchangeable with the racing bikes. But a 300? At least make it 380. Don't know why they kept the 300 and got rid of it 380 instead of the other way around. Other than to satisfy my last Theory. They don't want a cheaper less expensive bike making more horsepower than the 450. And although I love KTM, I consider it a dick move. still less Dick's than all the other companies who gave up on two strokes. But a dick move none the less.

My next bike is going to be a real tough decision. I need something new because the KX 500 is becoming hard to find parts for. But it's going to be tough to buy down to a 300. Going to miss that 15 horse. Man I hope some company surprises me soon, but I won't hold my breath. I'm sure the 300 is an amazing bike. It makes as much power as the 450 s so it's probably what I'll get.

 

The 300 made sense to keep around because, not only do they sell well, but it's the same motor as a 250 minus the bigger bore and piston. Also, the 300 makes perfect power for most offroad riding...aside from a couple massive hiilclimbs out in the desert, there has never been a time that I really needed more power from any of my 300's. The power they make is better than a 450 for offroad IMO. They don't stall or flameout and lack the jerky throttle nature of a big bore 4 stroke. If you tried a new 300 from any of the Euro manufacturers, I betting you wouldn't miss your 500. I recently rode a cr500af back to back with my Beta 300 and was actually unimpressed with the 500. The 500 vibrated, was a bitch to kick, and got crappy fuel mileage compared to my 300. Add to that, my 300 felt lighter while riding and didn't really seem to give up much low end power. 

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11 hours ago, Eppidemic said:

Sorry about the title. I've tried to edit it like 10 times and it just won't fix...

 

This is more just a point of contention or something that upsets me a little. I've always loved two strokes. My next bike without a doubt will be the 2019 TPI.

But it just irks me a little that they don't make a 380 or larger 2-stroke anymore. I've noticed the horsepower ratings in the 300 is dead even with the 450 F. To me this means KTM took away the 380 simply to not put out a bike that is cheaper with more power than a 450 F. The advantages of a 450 F if you want to call them that, are quite clear. Was the 380 really taking away from 450 F sales? I've only been back into riding less than a year so maybe this has been done to death. And I'm really excited that KTM is still innovating in the two stroke Market. Don't get me wrong. But with the new fuel injection what could be better than a high horsepower 380 or higher two-stroke? I feel like KTM is always giving people what they want. But they're hung up on this for some reason and it kind of pisses me off. Just seems like a flat dick move out of the sales department. A bunch of people in suits deciding the 450 F has to be the baddest bike. I thought that was already sort of proven in Motocross? Why not give us what we want in Enduro? Especially when they have a 2-stroke 250. The 300 is in no man's land. What's the point of a 50cc bump? A few more horsepower than the 250? Why not a 380 and give it a 10 to 15 horsepower boost? Am I right that this is clearly hindered by the 450 F? Anybody have any thoughts on this? Is the consensus that the 380 was unneeded?

 

 

 

 

A KTM 450sxf makes 58+hp (at peak) and weighs 222lbs dry...

A KTM 250sx 2t makes 50hp (at peak) and weighs 211lbs dry...

There is a big difference in HP between the two and the 450 makes it over a much much broader range.

The biggest thing people overlook is chassis design... New generation of 450s like the KTM can carve single track all morning, hit the MX track at lunch, then hit the desert in the evening with little problem...The same could be said about 300XC or TX300.

Buying a bike based on HP is a fools game... 

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15 minutes ago, Monk said:

Any manufacturer could make a 350/400 2t, it wouldn't sell. Sure, a few guys would buy them but the nostalgia would wear quick over time. Today's 450s put out more power then any 500 2t and do it over a broader range...

And no, a KX500 is not lighter then any current 250 (and up) made... 

This post above is idiocy. A stock 500 makes around the same HP and has about 10 more ft/lbs of torque, but it's a dinosaur from the 80s. Here is why KTM doesn't make a bigger 2t.

 

A 300 stock already mimics a 450 torque curve fairly well given its low state of tune. People are perfectly fine with that. The 300 also shares the same engine platform as the 250. So that means just one engine powers the 250 xc/xcw/sx and 300 xc/xcw as well as the husky models. If KTM made a 350 or 400 2t is would cannibalize it's best selling engine. It's like what happened with the 150, KTM sold way more 150s than 125s and even stopped making the 125 for a year or two. Except this would be on a bigger scale. This is sort of why KTM doesn't make a stock 300SX and just sells the 300 kit. No one would buy a 250sx when they could buy a 300sx that could actually compete head to head with a 450. 

A 350/400 2t would have a very broad torque curve and more than appeal to riders used to 450s and 300s, except you'd have more of the stuff you love. 

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from the age of 14 onwards ive always had a 500 smoker. cr500's, ktm and kx 500. ive even had a mth 685 2 stroke.

i found the 500 lots of fun. they arent crazy fast as standard but porting them made a massive difference. lots mores revs and top end power with the monster torque.

i bought a ktm 380 with the intention of retiring the 500 but then missed the torque. it also vibrated worse then the 500 too.  the 380 fell in a sort of no mans land for me. not as fun or easy to ride as a 300 and not enough power to replace the 500. i think ktm used the 250 cases on the 380 so the crank case volume was too low.

i now own a 17 300 with correct squish and jetting and since that point ive never missed the 500.

i had a 500af few months ago. it was a standard motor and the 300 murdered it. like i said they arent that wild until the motors been worked on to release its potential.

modern 300's are so fast (especially with a bit of porting and set the motor up right) i dont think theres any need anymore. i also had a superkart spec ktm 300 . those with a programmable cdi will make 70hp (rear wheel) and make power to 10800 rpm. if its pure bottom end torque you want theres no replacement for displacement though

there was a company who offered a 330 stroker kit and the cylinder could be bored and plated to make 350ish cc. maybe go down that route?

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