XC-W high rev - speed question

[onekawboy]

I Have a '15 200 xcw

Gearing 14/50 - i race GP n hare scrambles

I have had 2 races where there was wide open fields and i'm able to get into 5&6 gears

My issue or concern (because i'm still green to this bike) is that it feels like its falling off the pipe ?

Its hard to explain other than it goes from hauling n zinging - to zinging to braaaaap

Is 6th gear just that high?

 

Guess looking for those familiar w the 200's for a lil advice

 

 

[Jekel]

I noticed on my 250, when I had adjusted the power valve spring too loose she fell flat on upper rpm's. Since re-adjusting correctly, she revs fine. 

[onekawboy]

I have not played w jetting or the power valve setting
Maybe its time ?
There are time where it gets on the pipe but feels and just doest feel like im hooking up
I came off a 4stroke so kind of hard to compare an apple to a plum lol

[pat22043]

2 hours ago, onekawboy said:

I have not played w jetting or the power valve setting Maybe its time ?

yes, its time. Could be either or both.

[Singletrack_rider]

My 200xcw  felt flat and powerless on top in high gears stock. It was a combination of jetting and the power valve . Turn the powervalve  adjuster in 1-2 turns and go up a size or 2 on the main. That should help. If you're in 5th and 6th you should be hauling ass. My 200 had no problem doing 70mph+ in 6th gear.

 

[76xtdrvr]

onekawboy, if you're losing that top end in all gears, it might be worthwhile to check the engagement of the power valve control lever with the control shaft. When slipping the cylinder down to the case after a top end inspection/rebuild, the forked end of the control shaft in the cylinder must mesh with the radiused end of the control lever in the bottom end. Misalignment means normal bottom end and mid range, but no top end because the power valve can't open. 

[onekawboy]

Thanks guys - will take a look and see what i come up with.
Mayb i just need to get more seat time - but may look few things over to make sure i don't mess something up  - it appears to really only to fall or sound different w/ PV open - i am starting to suspect the gearing has some to do with it, as i  think i may be loosing traction vs hooking up 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by onekawboy

[onekawboy]

11 hours ago, GreenMT_Rider said:

My 200xcw  felt flat and powerless on top in high gears stock. It was a combination of jetting and the power valve . Turn the powervalve  adjuster in 1-2 turns and go up a size or 2 on the main. That should help. If you're in 5th and 6th you should be hauling ass. My 200 had no problem doing 70mph+ in 6th gear.

 

thanks  --- the times I'm using 5th & 6th -- is wide open across fields in races --- last weekend they put in a loop in a fields to connect to the sections of woods. Coming into the field i was probably in 4th -- as its a flat area after a hill -- but once i wound 4th out i shifted to 5th ---zinged along nicely half way to the corner i went to 6th --and tha'ts where it felt different

[Singletrack_rider]

5 minutes ago, onekawboy said:

thanks  --- the times I'm using 5th & 6th -- is wide open across fields in races --- last weekend they put in a loop in a fields to connect to the sections of woods. Coming into the field i was probably in 4th -- as its a flat area after a hill -- but once i wound 4th out i shifted to 5th ---zinged along nicely half way to the corner i went to 6th --and tha'ts where it felt different

My bike had a bad flat spot in the power around 6500-7000 rpm. If i didnt have the rpm up and shifted a little to soon it would fall into the flat spot . On my bike in stock form the power valve was opening to late. After i make the adjustment to open sooner and re-jetted the flat spot was gone. This could be what you are experiencing. 

[onekawboy]

Turned PV in half turn
Went from 165 main to 162
Swapped needle out too
Unfortunately no place to test WOT
Rode saturday n sunday at club I belong to seemed much snappier n more responsive
Currently running 14/50 gearing

[jersey_devil]

20 hours ago, onekawboy said:

Turned PV in half turn
Went from 165 main to 162
Swapped needle out too
Unfortunately no place to test WOT
Rode saturday n sunday at club I belong to seemed much snappier n more responsive
Currently running 14/50 gearing

What was the previous jetting, pj, needle and clip pos? What is the new jetting?

Did you buy the bike new or used? If used the PO may have adjusted the PV as you did. On the left side of the cylinder is an inspection plate for timing the PV. There are rather thick index marks. At idle adjust the spacing between the marks to around 2 MM. If the marks line up or are "touching" means the PO adjusted to the so called Langston setting. This setting absolutely kills top end and your actually losing power. 

Next if the bike was bought used it may need a fresh top end. A worn out top end will lose low end grunt but rev high with little power. The MJ  is the ONLY jet effective from 3/4 to WOT. It may be either to big or small.

Since your new to 2T's, understand a 2T will NOT rev as high as a 4T, but yours may not be in "tune".

 

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by jersey_devil

[onekawboy]

165 mj
42 pj
Now 162 mj / 42 pj

Bought used 23hrs on it

[jersey_devil]

44 minutes ago, onekawboy said:

165 mj

42 pj
Now 162 mj / 42 pj

Bought used 23hrs on it

Yes, but you also said you swapped out the needle, to what?

23 hours is a good find, but some riders make mods even before they ride the bike because of reading the internet. Not saying the PO made any changes but unless you know the person, you don't know for sure.

It really depends on what type of riding you do and how you ride, but many find the OEM jetting sucks and do better with an aftermarket needle. However with that said, keep in mind that at 3/4 to WOT which is where your issue is, no matter the needle or clip position it is entirely the MJ at work. Now, different needles MAY require a different MJ.

Regarding the PV adjustment. The 200 PV does NOT operate like the larger 250/300 that have springs and a dolly adjustment. When you adjust the timing marks you are setting where the PV flapper rests or starts from. There is a limited amount of movement range and if the adjustment is set low like with the Langston setting the flapper will NOT open fully for "best" WOT. 
 

 

[onekawboy]

29 minutes ago, jersey_devil said:

 

 swapped out the needle, to what?= NEDJ 

I recieved 2 needles and 1 MJ with the manuals - 

the 165  was in the carb along with NEDH needle 

Happened to be discussing what I was looking for to a co-rider / racer  - after a few minutes they replied my friend has one - went and looked at it - called them 2 days later to work out a price...I'm the 3rd owner -  PO's never really rode it-- the one I got it from owned it a year and probably rode it 3 x's he said - said it was too much for him. 

 

I think my next move is gearing -- want to try a 48 rear sprocket ( have the oem one) to see if I can get a little more length between shifts - currently I ride it in 3rd and 4th due the current 14.50 set up. 

 

[jersey_devil]

NEDJ/H, Well FYI these are NOT the OEM needles, they are Suzuki. I'm sort of the jetting guru over at Ktmtalk and specialize in the 200 since I own 2.  

The fact is [not bragging] I'm the one that originally introduced the Suzuki needles to the public over there, especially for the 250/300. The needles went viral and were picked up by every dirtbike website and now so commonplace nobody gives them a second thought. I actually sold out a popular Honda series needle for the 200 that I found. 

Well to get to the point. Both needles are identical, EXCEPT the J is 2 steps leaner on the short straight diameter. This part of the needle ONLY affects off idle to about 1/8 throttle at which point the 1st taper begins. Many 200 riders including myself find the H diameter better for off idle, in fact I prefer the G diameter which is richer. FYI the Suzuki needles are very similar to the OEM  NOZx/N1Ex needles but are leaner and cleaner at low throttle. They would typically use the same size mj as the end profile is the same. I feeAl the J diameter is a bit lean off idle for the 200. The J is better suited for the 300. If you experience a hanging idle look into the H or G diameter. If you want to try a .5 clip position change look into the same needle but NECx. The x would be diameter, G, H W, J, etc. A 1/2 clip change makes a significant change. BTW the NECx is .5 clip leaner when used in the same clip position as NEDx. In many cases these needles would be used in clip 4 or 3 counting from the top down.

So you see I was right, a PO DID change jetting from OEM, who knows if he also didn't mess with the PV setting? Never take anything for granted.

Stock gearing is 14/48. Now this is personal, same as jetting but I prefer the stock 14/48. Of course this all depends on what type of riding you do and how you ride. Some riders switch to a 46 or 45 sprocket to make 1st & 2nd gear more "useable".

Edited July 11, 2017 by jersey_devil

[onekawboy]

1 hour ago, jersey_devil said:

NEDJ/H, Well FYI these are NOT the OEM needles, they are Suzuki. I'm sort of the jetting guru over at Ktmtalk and specialize in the 200 since I own 2.  

The fact is [not bragging] I'm the one that originally introduced the Suzuki needles to the public over there, especially for the 250/300. The needles went viral and were picked up by every dirtbike website and now so commonplace nobody gives them a second thought. I actually sold out a popular Honda series needle for the 200 that I found. 

Well to get to the point. Both needles are identical, EXCEPT the J is 2 steps leaner on the short straight diameter. This part of the needle ONLY affects off idle to about 1/8 throttle at which point the 1st taper begins. Many 200 riders including myself find the H diameter better for off idle, in fact I prefer the G diameter which is richer. FYI the Suzuki needles are very similar to the OEM  NOZx/N1Ex needles but are leaner and cleaner at low throttle. They would typically use the same size mj as the end profile is the same. I feeAl the J diameter is a bit lean off idle for the 200. The J is better suited for the 300. If you experience a hanging idle look into the H or G diameter. If you want to try a .5 clip position change look into the same needle but NECx. The x would be diameter, G, H W, J, etc. A 1/2 clip change makes a significant change. BTW the NECx is .5 clip leaner when used in the same clip position as NEDx. In many cases these needles would be used in clip 4 or 3 counting from the top down.

So you see I was right, a PO DID change jetting from OEM, who knows if he also didn't mess with the PV setting? Never take anything for granted.

Stock gearing is 14/48. Now this is personal, same as jetting but I prefer the stock 14/48. Of course this all depends on what type of riding you do and how you ride. Some riders switch to a 46 or 45 sprocket to make 1st & 2nd gear more "useable".

WELL - you gave me some valuable info here -- ?

I will take a look tonight @ what needle I actually chose, as I'm old can't remember everything but i know the last letters on the 3 needles were (H, I, J ) . and after replying back and forth I can;t remember.  

THE reason I said OEM needles was because they were in the a little holder in the black manual holder, and going off what I was reading in the manual -  

From your stand point then - did I goof ?  by what I installed - i have not checked plug color yet as I only ridden 2 x's - but chopping the throttle its a lot crisper - and seems more responsive - but I don;t want to melt my piston. 

As far as type of riding I do, I mainly use it for racing- Hare Scrambles and GP's - and local club Club race. Play riding consists of trail riding with my son - at our club or where we race. AND occasionally I may get an itch to race a stadium race on Saturday night for a little extra seat time. 

As far as the PO (the one I purchased from)  they never touched anything as far as getting went, they geared it lower (which he wanted higher)  and he lowered the suspension he was vertically challenged. 

 

 

 

[jersey_devil]

Your riding style appears to be of a faster more aggressive nature. If you were to index the throttle you would probably see that you spend most of your time 1/4 throttle up to probably 1/2 with an occasional burst higher up to WOT. The mj and to a smaller extent needle clip position are most effective here. Below 1/4 throttle the pj, a/s & clip position. BTW the clip position is most effective in the 1/8 to just above 1/4 throttle. 

The reason riders change needle series is for the low throttle taper differences, mainly the initial starting taper which is actually about in the middle of the needle, NOT at the pointy tip as many assume. As mentioned and generally speaking most needles act very similar once above say 3/8 throttle, certainly half throttle. Needles are either single taper, dual taper or triple taper. The OEM  N0Zx/N1Ex and Suzuki are triple taper.

The needles in the KTM tube are most likely the Noz/N1ex [same needle but 1/2 clip difference with N1e being the richer] If I remember correctly I think KTM switched to N1Ei [w] and N1EJ [?] which have a very rich starting taper. If indeed the needles are Suzuki they are NOT OEM and a PO swapped out the OEM.

Calm down, I don't think you did anything wrong by swapping needles. In fact maybe for your riding conditions it's what you need to do. Jetting is very personal once you meet what the riding conditions demand. The mj is really the most important with faster more sustained WOT style riding or especially a long blast down a road then chopping the throttle. The OEM needles are great for MX for launch out of the gate and out of turns. They are not ideal for slower technical trail riding because they tend to load up if riding in the 1/8+ throttle area for any length of time. Not really a problem but the engine may hesitate and sputter a little until it cleans out. 

Spark plug reading is really only effective for the mj at WOT and other than heat range tells little to nothing about the lower throttle jetting. If your not already a Ktmtalk member consider joining. Then drop into the Jetting forum. At the top of the forum are the stickies for often asked questions. There is one called "wet oil line jetting". It involves a bit of work pulling the pipe but is really the only way for a rider to tell if the jetting is "correct" at any throttle opening. 

If your over all jetting is on the lean side you will have sharp crisp snappy power delivery but no torque. If on the too rich side, power will be torquey but lazy. Ideally you want to be just slightly rich right off idle then clean and crisp and if on the mj a lot running a safe size which is usually 1 step richer than optimum.

[onekawboy]

Your riding style appears to be of a faster more aggressive nature. If you were to index the throttle you would probably see that you spend most of your time 1/4 throttle up to probably 1/2 with an occasional burst higher up to WOT. The mj and to a smaller extent needle clip position are most effective here. Below 1/4 throttle the pj, a/s & clip position. BTW the clip position is most effective in the 1/8 to just above 1/4 throttle. 
The reason riders change needle series is for the low throttle taper differences, mainly the initial starting taper which is actually about in the middle of the needle, NOT at the pointy tip as many assume. As mentioned and generally speaking most needles act very similar once above say 3/8 throttle, certainly half throttle. Needles are either single taper, dual taper or triple taper. The OEM  N0Zx/N1Ex and Suzuki are triple taper.
The needles in the KTM tube are most likely the Noz/N1ex [same needle but 1/2 clip difference with N1e being the richer] If I remember correctly I think KTM switched to N1Ei [w] and N1EJ [?] which have a very rich starting taper. If indeed the needles are Suzuki they are NOT OEM and a PO swapped out the OEM.
Calm down, I don't think you did anything wrong by swapping needles. In fact maybe for your riding conditions it's what you need to do. Jetting is very personal once you meet what the riding conditions demand. The mj is really the most important with faster more sustained WOT style riding or especially a long blast down a road then chopping the throttle. The OEM needles are great for MX for launch out of the gate and out of turns. They are not ideal for slower technical trail riding because they tend to load up if riding in the 1/8+ throttle area for any length of time. Not really a problem but the engine may hesitate and sputter a little until it cleans out. 
Spark plug reading is really only effective for the mj at WOT and other than heat range tells little to nothing about the lower throttle jetting. If your not already a Ktmtalk member consider joining. Then drop into the Jetting forum. At the top of the forum are the stickies for often asked questions. There is one called "wet oil line jetting". It involves a bit of work pulling the pipe but is really the only way for a rider to tell if the jetting is "correct" at any throttle opening. 
If your over all jetting is on the lean side you will have sharp crisp snappy power delivery but no torque. If on the too rich side, power will be torquey but lazy. Ideally you want to be just slightly rich right off idle then clean and crisp and if on the mj a lot running a safe size which is usually 1 step richer than optimum.

162 - 42 - needle NEDJ 2 from the top is what i have in it now
NECI was in it
Have a NECH is the other

[91kdx25088]

Jersey Devil is one of the few who truly knows exactly what hes talking about. listen to him.

[jersey_devil]

I assume your home and have the needles in hand? A little needle info. The last letter indicates starting needle diameter, the higher the letter the leaner the needle ONLY IT'S STRAIGHT LENGTH which ONLY affects off idle to 1/8 throttle ONLY. This is often misunderstood when someone including OEM says a "leaner" needle. I didn't intend to go this far discussing needle nomenclature but a little information goes far. The ONLY needle series I'm aware of that uses the is NOZI & N1EI. The was later discontinued because of confusion with l or 1. The letter W has taken it's place and is the SAME diameter as i.

With this said the Suzuki needles DO NOT use the letter i, but W. Are you sure the letter is not L?

With you going from i [w] you went a step leaner on the diameter. The #2 clip position sounds lean to me, BUT if it's working for you don't worry. You may have lost some off idle grunt. Keep an ear for any sign of pinging or engine over heating or idle run-on. Where is your air screw set? Are you familiar with the term "whack the throttle" test for setting the a/s?  Are you using high octane race gas?

I wonder what a PO did with the original OEM needles?

 

Thanks 91KDX, I try but I don't have all the answers, LOL