Replacement header pipe. What are our options?

[Ben500RR-S]

8 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

So no one uses the carbon fiber Beta header guard?  And is anyone using a flatland type header guard?

In all my years of having had all 2 strokes, I never ran any sort of pipe guards and in all the nasty, rocky trails we had to ride, I had only dented my pipes enough to get sent out a couple of times to get repaired.  

The fact that the header pipe is so much smaller, thicker, and tucked further up than the CR500R pipes I had, means I should, I know I have to emphasize, SHOULD, not dent this pipe as easy as the 2 stroke pipes were.  

I will be made to eat these words I typed, I know it.  I should probably bring the spare pipe with me in case I ever crunch it bad enough it won't flow any air but I'll try and be careful with it.  

[weantright]

8 hours ago, THE KRAN said:

FMF and everyone else's claim that a resonator improves scavanging is proven wrong by the fact that virtually no other race motor outside of dirt bikes, uses such a thing for such a supposed purpose.

A resonator chamber is actually a 'helmholtz resonator' and acoustic reflex device, that creates an out-of-phase pulse the fools the motor into thinking the header a few inches longer, and fools you ear into thinking it's quieter by a couple decibles.  By design it cannot scavange better by just having a resonator. In fact, it will scavange worse.

Having said that, you can use this resonator to 'fix' a flat spot in off idle power, which is exactly what FMF does, while increasing scavenging in higher rpm tuning, getting the best of both worlds.

Yes, maximum pipe diameter is not by itself the key to more or better power. It's just a piece of tubing that performs a very complex function by the nature of its shape, diameter, lenghth, and resonators.

I have tried the FMF power bomb, Boano, and stock in multiple configurations and the stock header with the FMF PC4 pipe is signifigantly better on my 430RRRE.  Add in a .62 TPS voltage and viola, it's actually almost a fast bike.

Oh, and comparing any motor pre 2015 to any motor 2015 and later is pretty invalid. There is almost nothing to compare, accept their apperance.

I must not be understanding what you wrote because you contradicted yourself from one sentence to the other. Maybe its the wording "scavenging", "better" or "worst". In any case it must be doing something as several brands have incorporated resonators into their system providing some kind of performance upgrade.

[FORMA MOTO]

29 minutes ago, weantright said:

I must not be understanding what you wrote because you contradicted yourself from one sentence to the other. Maybe its the wording "scavenging", "better" or "worst". In any case it must be doing something as several brands have incorporated resonators into their system providing some kind of performance upgrade.

I agree

[weantright]

I was being PC, so more direct. You have no clue to what a resonator does in the complete system and why only dirt bike have them.

[FORMA MOTO]

57 minutes ago, weantright said:

I was being PC, so more direct. You have no clue to what a resonator does in the complete system and why only dirt bike have them.

That's a big fat claim, but you choose only to insult and nothing more.  

... just educate yourself and move on....

  "The concept is that by damping the pressure waves in the header, the engine is fooled into seeing the header as having no defined length, theoretically resulting in a wider torque curve.  Does it work?  The Power Bomb I had on my '03 YZ450 did definitely take the peaky spot out of the power curve.  Otherwise, I can't say."

 

[Marco the Pool Boy]

11 hours ago, THE KRAN said:

FMF and everyone else's claim that a resonator improves scavanging is proven wrong by the fact that virtually no other race motor outside of dirt bikes, uses such a thing for such a supposed purpose.

A resonator chamber is actually a 'helmholtz resonator' and acoustic reflex device, that creates an out-of-phase pulse the fools the motor into thinking the header a few inches longer, and fools you ear into thinking it's quieter by a couple decibles.  By design it cannot scavange better by just having a resonator. In fact, it will scavange worse.

Having said that, you can use this resonator to 'fix' a flat spot in off idle power, which is exactly what FMF does, while increasing scavenging in higher rpm tuning, getting the best of both worlds.

Yes, maximum pipe diameter is not by itself the key to more or better power. It's just a piece of tubing that performs a very complex function by the nature of its shape, diameter, lenghth, and resonators.

I have tried the FMF power bomb, Boano, and stock in multiple configurations and the stock header with the FMF PC4 pipe is signifigantly better on my 430RRRE.  Add in a .62 TPS voltage and viola, it's actually almost a fast bike.

Oh, and comparing any motor pre 2015 to any motor 2015 and later is pretty invalid. There is almost nothing to compare, accept their apperance.

1000 apologies......

[weantright]

53 minutes ago, THE KRAN said:

That's a big fat claim, but you choose only to insult and nothing more.  

... just educate yourself and move on....

  "The concept is that by damping the pressure waves in the header, the engine is fooled into seeing the header as having no defined length, theoretically resulting in a wider torque curve.  Does it work?  The Power Bomb I had on my '03 YZ450 did definitely take the peaky spot out of the power curve.  Otherwise, I can't say."

 

It changed your power curved but,,,,, you can't say??? Didn't insult just pointed out another contradicting post.

[hawaiidirtrider]

8 hours ago, Ben500RR-S said:

In a way, there is about $170 to lose, if the pipe is split open by the frozen water, instead of paying $60 plus shipping to get the pipe repaired, one is out $170.  

I do have a new pipe ready to go on but I'm waiting to dent the pipe more before I send it out-ha!  

 

 

Why not just put a good guard on then? it's going to dent again and again.. I'm in the same boat. I got my 350 rr with a new fmf header with no guard yet.. probably going to break down and get the cf  Beta guard.... but I know what is better is what is on my 525 RS that I got from flatland. 

http://www.flatlandracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FR&Product_Code=11-63&Category_Code=

can see at the 20 second mark.

Krannie's way sounds good . It's free and your pipe is dented anyway. I would have tried fixing my dented header if I knew ahead of time. I wouldn't waste my time paying and sending my pipe to take out a dent if I'm not going to put on a good guard. I'll try calling flatland to see if he's decided to put out a Beta header guard.. maybe he has a guard that might cross over too for that matter.. or I'll just get the carbon fiber guard which I'm not so much into but it would protect better. It looks like shit after a couple of good hits though...at least it does on other carbon fiber guards..

http://www.americanbeta.com/content/4-stroke-pipe-guard

Edited August 15, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[hawaiidirtrider]

8 hours ago, Ben500RR-S said:

In all my years of having had all 2 strokes, I never ran any sort of pipe guards and in all the nasty, rocky trails we had to ride, I had only dented my pipes enough to get sent out a couple of times to get repaired.  

The fact that the header pipe is so much smaller, thicker, and tucked further up than the CR500R pipes I had, means I should, I know I have to emphasize, SHOULD, not dent this pipe as easy as the 2 stroke pipes were.  

I will be made to eat these words I typed, I know it.  I should probably bring the spare pipe with me in case I ever crunch it bad enough it won't flow any air but I'll try and be careful with it.  

Hey it's simple. Bikes fall over in rocks and pipes dent.. 2 and 4 stroke. Here we have way more 2 strokes in the trails so we have full on pipe cages custom made that lots of guys have on their bikes.. The header gets nailed lots of times on 4 strokes . My 350 I bought used was dented in the header ..It had no guard. I bought a new  header pipe but knew it's just a matter of time and situation for it to happen again. We ride in rocks and bikes fall over. I don't think the smaller pipes are thicker either. I don't know how thick it is but it's not thick enough to not dent. We can just ride it and take a chance and fix like krannie does.. or send away to fix.. I just think might as well just put a decent guard .

[hawaiidirtrider]

Ok I just got off the phone with flatland. Guy on the line said they didn't have a header pipe guard but if you send them your header guard they could make it and for the same general price as other header guards. I guess add shipping to that..They just don't have a pipe to make an initial set . Something to think about.. Flatland does have great quality and for what you get I think it's a great price.. much cheaper than carbon fiber . My 525 flatland guard got hit a bunch of times and no damage at all.

http://www.flatlandracing.com/

[ccullins]

Until reading this post I never knew denting a fourstroke header was a concern. Smashed plenty of 2t pipes, but no 4t pipes as of yet, even riding endurocross. I always looked at the guards as more of a heat shield?

As for the whole resonance chamber thing, it was always my understanding it was a way of keeping the noise down without sacrificing power. Beyond that I don't get too concerned with what or why. If one header works better than the other then that's what we'll use. 

[hawaiidirtrider]

31 minutes ago, ccullins said:

Until reading this post I never knew denting a fourstroke header was a concern. Smashed plenty of 2t pipes, but no 4t pipes as of yet, even riding endurocross. I always looked at the guards as more of a heat shield?

As for the whole resonance chamber thing, it was always my understanding it was a way of keeping the noise down without sacrificing power. Beyond that I don't get too concerned with what or why. If one header works better than the other then that's what we'll use. 

When I've inquired for guards so far it's weird to me. I mean it seems from the shops and Rider's I've talked to is they just replace their dented header, they also just run the header with a ding and don't care so much. Some put guards but not alot . Like I have for my 525 Beta and that guard has been doing it's job. Most just don't put a guard and just run without. ..but hardly any run 4 strokes overall for extreme enduro stuff here anyway. It's 2 strokes 90 plus percent in the  trail and lots have mega strong custom pipe cages made for their bikes. I'm surprised guys don't have guards for 4 stroke. For pro bikes it's not a big deal. Get a ding then a new header goes on. That's not the same to me as regular guys that ride hard trail every weekend. I think some regular guys who ride just want to save money so they guard up. I know I do. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[Ben500RR-S]

30 minutes ago, ccullins said:

Until reading this post I never knew denting a fourstroke header was a concern. Smashed plenty of 2t pipes, but no 4t pipes as of yet, even riding endurocross. I always looked at the guards as more of a heat shield?

As for the whole resonance chamber thing, it was always my understanding it was a way of keeping the noise down without sacrificing power. Beyond that I don't get too concerned with what or why. If one header works better than the other then that's what we'll use. 

Welcome to the eye opening reality of the internet forum(s).  

Here are some before/after's of both 2 and 4 stroke pipes;

 

http://www.fusiononeusa.com/BeforeandAfter.html

[ccullins]

1 hour ago, Ben500RR-S said:

Welcome to the eye opening reality of the internet forum(s).  

Here are some before/after's of both 2 and 4 stroke pipes;

 

http://www.fusiononeusa.com/BeforeandAfter.html

LOL, ain't that the truth. I read a lot of issues that people keep saying they're having that we never experience. Then issues we normally have nobody else ever seems to have.

But I guess it makes sense, a bike that gets ridden really hard for an hour or so at a time 3 or 4 days a week and gets served in between is going to wear a lot differently than a bike that gets trail ridden 50 to 100 miles a day 2 or 3 times a month. 

[hawaiidirtrider]

36 minutes ago, ccullins said:

LOL, ain't that the truth. I read a lot of issues that people keep saying they're having that we never experience. Then issues we normally have nobody else ever seems to have.

But I guess it makes sense, a bike that gets ridden really hard for an hour or so at a time 3 or 4 days a week and gets served in between is going to wear a lot differently than a bike that gets trail ridden 50 to 100 miles a day 2 or 3 times a month. 

Plus there's the talent equation. Your son can ride , is young and fit and probably is way past lots of the crash and burn antics a bunch of other riders go through.. especially later in the day when everyone is beat up and tired. It's why I  have more protective gear for my body too. Of course that's part of the entertainment too. Watching each other crash and burn is part of the fun. And lots have cameras now. ?

[Ben500RR-S]

I finally got around to getting a couple pics of the scratches on my pipe:

 

 

 

I was coming down a steep downhill that was all loose soil and sand.  The opening between the two big boulders was just enough to squeak on by but I simply came too close to the boulder and hit it.  If I am losing any power at all, it is very little.  I really should just change it out as I have a brand new one in the garage ready to go on but I want to wait until I dent it up some more so when I send it away to be fixed, or try freezing water in it, it will be worth it.  I doubt that the water will do much as the dents/scratches are not all that big.  

The good thing is that the hit can't really be seen unless it is pointed out or one looks up at the pipe.  

Edited August 17, 2017 by Ben500RR-S

[hawaiidirtrider]

1 hour ago, Ben500RR-S said:

I finally got around to getting a couple pics of the scratches on my pipe:

 

 

 

I was coming down a steep downhill that was all loose soil and sand.  The opening between the two big boulders was just enough to squeak on by but I simply came too close to the boulder and hit it.  If I am losing any power at all, it is very little.  I really should just change it out as I have a brand new one in the garage ready to go on but I want to wait until I dent it up some more so when I send it away to be fixed, or try freezing water in it, it will be worth it.  I doubt that the water will do much as the dents/scratches are not all that big.  

The good thing is that the hit can't really be seen unless it is pointed out or one looks up at the pipe.  

That's nothing.. If you put a guard on there you wouldn't even see it too.. good thing it didn't hit worse..No way you losing any power. If anything it's just cosmetic..

Edited August 17, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[hawaiidirtrider]

No sense change it out if you aren't putting a guard.

[Marco the Pool Boy]

29 minutes ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

That's nothing.. If you put a guard on there you wouldn't even see it too.. good thing it didn't hit worse..No way you losing any power. If anything it's just cosmetic..

That's just a tiny whisky-blister, or a small badge of courage....  I'd never mess with that little bruise. 

[weantright]

Parking lot princess??? If you do ride your plastic will take your eyes off of this nasty looking header?