17 500 RR-S Throttle stepper motor adjustment

[mferring1]

So I was just listening to one of Barry's Cross Training Enduro videos, and they talked about the ability to adjust the throttle stepper motor to affect the amount of engine braking for the 480/500.

Any of you folks aware of how to do this? I have done several different searches on line and in forums and haven't found anything yet.

Also, if you have played with the stepper settings, any comments as to how effective it was and whether it is worth trying different settings?

Many thanks for your thoughts.

[Borgschulze]

I believe it raises the idle a little bit.

You can effectively reduce engine braking on FCR-MX equipped bikes by raising the idle the same way.

The lower the idle the more engine braking...

[basalt]

+100 rpm and +300 rpm - I think your dealer has to do it (or someone with similar connections)

 

Some info here: 

 

[mferring1]

Thanks guys, makes sense.

Mark

[weantright]

The stepper motor lets air in on the decal stroke. This could be adjusted via. software from the manufacture's tuning tool. This same system is used on Sherco's and the dealer tool can not adjust it. As posted above simple bypass is raising the idle a little.

[MartyMOOSE]

1 hour ago, weantright said:

The stepper motor lets air in on the decal stroke. This could be adjusted via. software from the manufacture's tuning tool. This same system is used on Sherco's and the dealer tool can not adjust it. As posted above simple bypass is raising the idle a little.

This is not the case the idle holds up a little on decel then drops this is what reduces the engine braking but it does drop back. Its not the same as a higher idle like on a carb. The stepper works all the time its an output sensor that is duty driven. 

 

[Piney Woods]

Krannie had an issue and his dealer corrected things as I recall. He posted about it here.

[basalt]

I had that issue when my bike was new. It was not normal. Dealer re-flashed and it went away. It was wierd and dangerous - the bike would seem to surge into corners when chopping the throttle then slow again. Not fun.

 

A hanging idle is not the same as the +100, +300 settings that can be set in map. Idle is idle. If the RPMs are higher, then dropping- the bike wasn't idling. Saying it does anything special to reduce engine braking is just marketing mumbo jumbo.

[MartyMOOSE]

Your just playing with words if it feels like less engine braking it is. It doesn't change the pumping efficiency of the engine no but the effect is this. It does effect engine run down and the feel of the engine braking. This is noticeable if you snap the throttle  on and off using each map and yes i have done this and played around with the various maps. Another experiment is to try just lifting the idle on say a KTM with a fixed idle circuit you do get run in on the Beta you don't.  

[FORMA MOTO]

Beta offers (6) maps

RR +0rpm, + 100, + 200

FMF +0rpm, +100, +200  (richer across the board, slightly advanced)

Add in the 'flattening map' that you get with the map switch (wet conditions) and you have some options.

The stepper motor is just a Thottle Position Sensor.  It cannot affect exhaust timing to 'let in air'.  It just tells the ecu where the throttle butterfly is at any rpm range.

Synerject uses the stepper motor because it is more robust. Carbon film TPS's are not linear in resitance and change drastically with heat and time.

The + rpm map options are to 'simulate' the two stroke experience: slower idle drop, and less engine braking. 

I am always in a gear 'too high' on purpose, using tons of clutch, so it has no benefit to me. I like the engine braking to be there when I need it. 

When ever I have a hanging idle issue, I just do the passive ECU reset for 6+ minutes, and it all fixes it self.

 

[MartyMOOSE]

1 hour ago, Krannie McKranface said:

Beta offers (6) maps

RR +0rpm, + 100, + 200

FMF +0rpm, +100, +200  (richer across the board, slightly advanced)

Add in the 'flattening map' that you get with the map switch (wet conditions) and you have some options.

The stepper motor is just a Thottle Position Sensor.  It cannot affect exhaust timing to 'let in air'.  It just tells the ecu where the throttle butterfly is at any rpm range.

Synerject uses the stepper motor because it is more robust. Carbon film TPS's are not linear in resitance and change drastically with heat and time.

The + rpm map options are to 'simulate' the two stroke experience: slower idle drop, and less engine braking. 

I am always in a gear 'too high' on purpose, using tons of clutch, so it has no benefit to me. I like the engine braking to be there when I need it. 

When ever I have a hanging idle issue, I just do the passive ECU reset for 6+ minutes, and it all fixes it self.

 

Go do some research and come back. BTW the TPS is on the RHS of the throttle body and the stepper on the LHS. Have a look here page 40-44 yes its Sherco but go have a look at your Beta. The stepper is an output sensor the TPS an input. The stepper bypasses the throttle plate just like an idle screw on a KTM etc etc except its variable which is how it affects idle, this is a major plus of the whole system and why its so so smooth and how it changes idle down (the 2st experience) which feels like less engine braking. BTW I run a FMF +300 map!!!

 

MM 

[FORMA MOTO]

9 hours ago, MartyMOOSE said:

Go do some research and come back. BTW the TPS is on the RHS of the throttle body and the stepper on the LHS. Have a look here page 40-44 yes its Sherco but go have a look at your Beta. The stepper is an output sensor the TPS an input. The stepper bypasses the throttle plate just like an idle screw on a KTM etc etc except its variable which is how it affects idle, this is a major plus of the whole system and why its so so smooth and how it changes idle down (the 2st experience) which feels like less engine braking. BTW I run a FMF +300 map!!!

 

MM 

MM is correct, and, I described it incorrectly.

The Stepper motor controls the butterfly valve independently of the throttle cable system.  The TPS tells the ecu to tell the stepper motor what to do, based on the map and idle adjustment.  If you notice on the left side of the TB, there is a vertical screw sealed with blue marking paint. That is the 'idle' adjustment, which we are not supposed to change.

The Stepper motor 'overides' the butterfly valve's motion to provide smoother opening and closing, and closing speed.

By slowing the butterfly closing speed you can reduce engine braking to nearly zero, if you want.

Nothing like a USA designed, French influenced, Chinese made and Italian applied FI system.....

http://w.synerject.com/en/recreation/all-terrain-vehicle-atv-and-side-by-side-vehicle-ssv/1-mtb-p22-1?idi=12

[basalt]

3 hours ago, Krannie McKranface said:

 

By slowing the butterfly closing speed you can reduce engine braking to nearly zero, if you want.

 

Question is - can we lay persons ACTUALLY do this by just talking with our dealer or whomever has access to changing maps?

 

Or are our only options still the +100 +300?

[FORMA MOTO]

2 hours ago, basalt said:

Question is - can we lay persons ACTUALLY do this by just talking with our dealer or whomever has access to changing maps?

 

Or are our only options still the +100 +300?

That is the only option I have been able to find.

I have contacted Synerject and they say "talk to your dealer".

Beta says the same thing.

However, you can buy the BST (Beta Service Tool) and software from Beta,  if you ask nicely, and are a 'dealer'.....for about $900+.....but I bet it's pretty complicated like the KTM/Keihin UST, to use if you are trying to do something other than map swapping.

Someone else on this forum has one, but doesn't communicate here often...

[MartyMOOSE]

9 hours ago, Krannie McKranface said:

MM is correct, and, I described it incorrectly.

The Stepper motor controls the butterfly valve independently of the throttle cable system.  The TPS tells the ecu to tell the stepper motor what to do, based on the map and idle adjustment.  If you notice on the left side of the TB, there is a vertical screw sealed with blue marking paint. That is the 'idle' adjustment, which we are not supposed to change.

The Stepper motor 'overides' the butterfly valve's motion to provide smoother opening and closing, and closing speed.

By slowing the butterfly closing speed you can reduce engine braking to nearly zero, if you want.

Nothing like a USA designed, French influenced, Chinese made and Italian applied FI system.....

http://w.synerject.com/en/recreation/all-terrain-vehicle-atv-and-side-by-side-vehicle-ssv/1-mtb-p22-1?idi=12

I have not pulled this apart but I'd say the stepper is a duty driven solenoid and does not touch the butterfly at all. Its uses a bypass around the throttle plate. The "idle" screw is a base idle not idle as we know, the idle speed is controlled by the bypass the base is just a small amount of air flow to help with lag. The base screw will set the throttle plate with around a 3 thou gap although I have not measured this. The Beta tool from what I've seen only gives fixed maps no individual adjustment parameters. 

[FORMA MOTO]

1 hour ago, MartyMOOSE said:

I have not pulled this apart but I'd say the stepper is a duty driven solenoid and does not touch the butterfly at all. Its uses a bypass around the throttle plate. The "idle" screw is a base idle not idle as we know, the idle speed is controlled by the bypass the base is just a small amount of air flow to help with lag. The base screw will set the throttle plate with around a 3 thou gap although I have not measured this. The Beta tool from what I've seen only gives fixed maps no individual adjustment parameters. 

The BST  I saw at my Beta dealer was very similar to what is used on the Ducati and Aprillia bikes. It's a 5-axis tuning grid similar to Keihin. 

[MartyMOOSE]

1 hour ago, Krannie McKranface said:

The BST  I saw at my Beta dealer was very similar to what is used on the Ducati and Aprillia bikes. It's a 5-axis tuning grid similar to Keihin. 

Cool have not seen that side of it yet will ask. I've only seen the maps you can upload and the diagnostic side which like most is limited. 

 

MM 

[weantright]

13 hours ago, MartyMOOSE said:

I have not pulled this apart but I'd say the stepper is a duty driven solenoid and does not touch the butterfly at all. Its uses a bypass around the throttle plate. The "idle" screw is a base idle not idle as we know, the idle speed is controlled by the bypass the base is just a small amount of air flow to help with lag. The base screw will set the throttle plate with around a 3 thou gap although I have not measured this. The Beta tool from what I've seen only gives fixed maps no individual adjustment parameters. 

This solenoid has been known to leak grease from the inside reducing the closing speed of the bypass. This will stall the motor similar to a flameout and affect the idle. This solenoid is a sealed unit but you can clean the shaft which is the area affected.

[Piney Woods]

I dearly love my Mikuni! More each day.

[MartyMOOSE]

1 hour ago, YHGEORGE said:

I dearly love my Mikuni! More each day.

You can keep it along with the crank handle on your car. FI is better in every way very reliable.