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2017 CRF450R issue / knock

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So, my 2017 CRF450R has about 35-40hrs on it. Has Yosh exhaust, Rekluse Torq Drive clutch, and otherwise stock.
Loud knock started yesterdy - noticeable at idle.
I noticed it seemed extremely hot as well after shutting it off.

Drained the oil, no metal - doesn't seem to be bearing going in lower end.
Coolant was full.

Cam chain/tensioner is fine.
Camshaft is aligned correctly. Values perfectly in spec.

Pulled cylinder and piston, definitely looks like it got hot.
Cleaned up the cylinder and I think there is no damage but it does look like the piston was slapping at the top of the cylinder.
I could see the top couple of mm's of the cylinder wall a darker ring than the rest.

Because it seemed hot, and I had full radiator fluid, I suspected the water pump maybe was not functioning correctly. I've never really had water pump issues before so I wanted to see if anyone had input.
Nothing was broken but the shaft had some wiggle to it and felt slightly "crunchy" when spinning it (washer was corroded some). Side to side wiggle, not in/out. But it was definitely able to spin on the shaft.
So is this wiggle normal?
With nothing broken, and full coolant, is it possible this is even part of my problem?
I of course went to take the water pump apart, anyone ever tried this. Not sure how to get the mechanical seal out. I tried and it ends up with some metal retainer still in there - not sure if this is part of the mechanical seal or outer case.
I did order a service manual but it has yet to show up. I have no special tools for this, are they needed?

BTW, Is there a way to know if the water pump is functioning?

I also have a Yosh exhaust. When I took the bike apart it was majorly cracked on both sides near the welds where the brackets are.
Any thoughts on if this could affect the engine negatively?

I'm pretty stumped on this issue so I'm just going to replace the water pump assembly totally, piston, and then see what happens.
Opinions?

 

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Can't help on the knock or the water pump. However my Yoshi pipes cracked on my 2013 after 3 yrs. I emailed Yoshi and the replaced the broken parts for me immediately. So, as yours is a 17 I'd get onto them straight away

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I have reached out this morning. I did already get a reply asking for photos. Thanks for the feedback.

 

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If you have those photo's post them, it may help. I also have a 17 so this is somewhat bothersome...

Have you measured the piston and cylinder yet to see if they are now out of spec? If not you really should do so before you reassemble them.

Do you think it is possible that one or both of the Yosh were knocking around where they are cracked and making the noise you heard?.

I have had the right side case cover off but I left the water pump intact when I removed it so I have not seen the water pump dissembled. Your water pump findings sound problematic though. And damn Honda to hell for bringing that mechanical seal back into our lives.

Try to post some clear, close-up pic's of the piston, cylinder, water pump etc.

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Here are some photos.

Yosh is seemly going to replace the exhaust parts for me.

Looks like the part of the mechanical seal is what I see in the case outer case still. After the photo I was able to pry it out.

It was definitely not the exhaust I heard making the noise.

 

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cylinder is in spec.

This is the water pump washer - has some hard debris on it but kind of hard to tell by the picture.

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I'd bet a case of Coronas that your racket was coming from that cracked pipe. The cylinder seems fine. The piston pics are the view id like to look for damage at the skirt, where it'd be "slapping" if that were the issue. The biggest problem is that the skirt is so short, that even when it's worn all the way out, they dont make much noise at all. Yours looks pretty good. The water pump is such a simply device that for it to not function, you'd have to have a gigantic piece of debris in the pump to block flow. If there's flow issue, it'd be more likely in the radiator.

But for the cost of a gasket, I'd pull that stator cover and grab that crank shaft and make sure there's not up and down play in it. Just because you don't see metal in the oil doesn't mean it's not stuck all over the stator. That left side bearing cage is the weak link.

But all in all, my money is on that cracked to shit pipe making all the noise.

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20 hours ago, Shawn_Mc said:

I'd bet a case of Coronas that your racket was coming from that cracked pipe. The cylinder seems fine. The piston pics are the view id like to look for damage at the skirt, where it'd be "slapping" if that were the issue. The biggest problem is that the skirt is so short, that even when it's worn all the way out, they dont make much noise at all. Yours looks pretty good. The water pump is such a simply device that for it to not function, you'd have to have a gigantic piece of debris in the pump to block flow. If there's flow issue, it'd be more likely in the radiator.

But for the cost of a gasket, I'd pull that stator cover and grab that crank shaft and make sure there's not up and down play in it. Just because you don't see metal in the oil doesn't mean it's not stuck all over the stator. That left side bearing cage is the weak link.

But all in all, my money is on that cracked to shit pipe making all the noise.

I know he seems sure it is not the exhaust but I have experienced noises that ended up coming from places I was almost convinced they were not coming from.

Although it is not the source of the noise the "crunchy" description regarding the water pump needs addressing. $5.00 for a new bearing makes that part replacement a no-brainer if it is even remotely questionable. On the flip side since it is a cheap bearing so the "crunchy" feeling may be normal. Most dealers usually have that bearing in stock so it would be easy to compare the existing with new.

<Rant> What the hell is wrong with Yosh!!! Scott's slip-on was cracked in 4 different places, just the slip-on!! Dave, being the cool dude that he is, welded it up for him after we installed the MRD. I know exhausts crack and break sometimes but I see and hear of Yosh systems turning to shit FAR more often then all the others. Had I not got the deal on mine that I did I would never run the Yosh because they crack and break. And that is sad commentary because A, the full TI system retails for $1350.00 and B,  you can feel the added performance a full Yosh system delivers in the seat of your pants. I really like my Yosh exhaust but I have no doubt that it will crack prematurely <End Rant>

Edited by mrmoto35

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Thanks for the replies.

Standing next to the bike and listening when it was on the stand, it sure sounded like a knock in the cylinder. At that time I didn't know the exhaust was all cracked, and it also seemed really hot (and the last time I rode it I remember when I got home thinking "why is this thing so hot still").

You're starting to make me think it was the exhaust though.

I'll rebuild the water pump and put the new piston in then see what happens. I ordered the parts but the dealer called and left me a message that some are back ordered with no ETA -  so hopefully nothing I can't live without.

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4 hours ago, jfletcher said:

Thanks for the replies.

Standing next to the bike and listening when it was on the stand, it sure sounded like a knock in the cylinder. At that time I didn't know the exhaust was all cracked, and it also seemed really hot (and the last time I rode it I remember when I got home thinking "why is this thing so hot still").

You're starting to make me think it was the exhaust though.

I'll rebuild the water pump and put the new piston in then see what happens. I ordered the parts but the dealer called and left me a message that some are back ordered with no ETA -  so hopefully nothing I can't live without.

Was the bike running when it seemed hot? The CRF's, all of them, will get hot if the bike is just sitting and idling. It only takes a minute or two before they get hot. Was it puking coolant when you made this observation? If the bike was overheating it would have been puking coolant. And the 17 does run a little warmer then previous years

I am with you regarding the piston replacement. @ 40 hrs it is not like it is a big waste of money

Edited by mrmoto35

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I just noticed the bike was hot after I shut it off. I have no real proof it was overly hot, just that I never thought that previously and something made me think that the last time I rode it (just how it still was after sitting for an hour - radiating heat still ).

Coolant was still full, so no puking of coolant, so that made me think if it was hot and I had coolant, the only way that would be possible is if the coolant was not actually circulating.  Hence I looked at the water pump. Thought that had unusual wiggle and grinding, although it was attached and must have been spinning. Then I took that all apart. Probably was fine to start with.

I'm coming to the conclusion I'm probably just doing a more time consuming piston replacement and valve check at this point instead of fixing a motor issue.  Consensus seems to be exhaust noise, and because that would also make me feel better I'll go with it unless I put it all back together and still hear it.

Yosh is sending me replacement parts, so even though I'm disappointed it cracked so badly in such a short time I'm very happy with the customer service. I've had a very different customer service experience with FMF a couple times.

 

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We could be wrong.  it is far better to be safe then sorry. Check as much as you can before you put it all back together. Ask questions if needed.

I would still do what Shawn recommends. Pull the stator cover and check the crank. Check the rod as well. When I installed the electric start kit in my 17 I did not have to replace the side cover gasket. It came right off, no sticking anywhere. Maybe your stator cover gasket will do the same. If not they are cheap.

When you get it all back together I would recommend kicking it over, gently at first with the kill switch engaged. Make sure nothing binds or makes noise.

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Exhaust escaping from that exhaust crack/leak will sound exactly as described. Totally normal.

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7 minutes ago, Eddie8v said:

Exhaust escaping from that exhaust crack/leak will sound exactly as described. Totally normal.

Yep, this is exactly what I experienced with my truck

18 hours ago, mrmoto35 said:

 

 

Edited by mrmoto35

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That piston and cylinder look fine to me. It's a honda so I doubt there is a weirdo engine problem. Put it back together with the old pipe and see what it sounds like.

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For shits and giggles though, spend the money on a stator gasket and make sure you lay hands on the left side of that crank. Make sure there's no "up-down" play in it. Disregarding this piece of advice can lead you down a road of doing it all over again or worse yet, normalizing in your mind a sound that's nothing more than dollars trying to leave your wallet via the left side main bearing.

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I did check for up and down play and seems good. Just waiting on parts now to put it back together...

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Finally got the parts in and put it back together last night.

Rebuilt the water pump - felt just like it did before so I guess it was fine.

Put in new CP piston.

Crank felt fine and I felt no play.

New exhaust is on it with no leaks.

Now I'm back to square one. I have a loud knock still.

Any other theories?

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