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Harsh suspension 2017 rr

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Hi guys,

Riding my 17 300rr back to back with a 17 350 husky and my partners 16 crf450x the suspension feels harsh in comparison. The husky I tried is on the other end of the spectrum, if anything too soft. Whilst on the RR you can feel every bump on the trail. The front does get a little wallowly when landing jumps and hitting obstacles at speed. The settings are completely standard, standard oil, standard springs. I have tried softening off the clickers on the forks before but find you tend to deflect off everything. I bleed the forks before every ride, weigh about 80kg in gear so the stock springs should be OK.

Just wondering if this harshness is normal? Its quite a hard ride with the stock seat, vibration through the bars and the front and rear suspension transmitting every bump to you. Is there anything to make the suspension more plush without deflecting off everything at speed? 

Its the standard RR with open cartridge Sachs fork, 10mm showing above clamps, 1st line on forks (fork height in clamps) thanks in advance! 

Edited by Black-swan

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Pm Mog he's in the UK or post up in the suspension section asking for him. He may not do the work but will know someone who can help you. These bikes need a little shim shuffle to settle them  imho. 

 

MM 

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1 hour ago, Black-swan said:

Hi guys,

Riding my 17 300rr back to back with a 17 350 husky and my partners 16 crf450x the suspension feels harsh in comparison. The husky I tried is on the other end of the spectrum, if anything too soft. Whilst on the RR you can feel every bump on the trail. The front does get a little wallowly when landing jumps and hitting obstacles at speed. The settings are completely standard, standard oil, standard springs. I have tried softening off the clickers on the forks before but find you tend to deflect off everything. I bleed the forks before every ride, weigh about 80kg in gear so the stock springs should be OK.

Just wondering if this harshness is normal? Its quite a hard ride with the stock seat, vibration through the bars and the front and rear suspension transmitting every bump to you. Is there anything to make the suspension more plush without deflecting off everything at speed? 

Its the standard RR with open cartridge Sachs fork, 10mm showing above clamps, 1st line on forks (fork height in clamps) thanks in advance! 

Did you service your forks? Usually the stock oil isn't good.... lots change their fork oil after a short while.. I got stiffer springs and didn't revalve..just serviced with new oil and almost stock settings but slowed down the rebound and it's been great .. on my 15 300 rr.. I think mine is time to service again.. it's been awhile as I changed it just a little after buying new.. couple months? I'm heavier so I got stiffer springs but more than usual.. but it turned out great.. plush and more stable at speed..plus I changed the tires as the stock tires suck.. I have a 90/100-21 Motoz up front that I love.. I like the larger tires.. front and back..got an IBEX kenda in back that's working well where I ride. Check as there are threads on this anyway here.. so you can figure settings etc.. There is an article of that had the listing for the Stillwell racing settings that are just a little different than stock.. it's in here somewhere.. might have been on a dirtbike or dirtrider magazine article???  wait here.. but there are more articles.. on beta suspension.. google it and include thumpertalk in the search for more info.. the search in TT sucks..

 

 

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How many hrs on the suspension?  If you're not sure, change the fluid and maybe start with a lower oil level.

Edited by motocrotts
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Goes to show you how subjective suspension can be . I had a 15 rr race with resprung and revolved forks I quite liked , got a 17 rr with the open Sachs and felt they were far better stock for my tight  technical riding here on the coast .Will say the front tire makes a huge difference on these bikes , golden tyre fatty with tubliss at 8 lbs  tracks very nice ion most surfaces . Defiantly check your front for binds, lossen-align-retorque 

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3 hours ago, MartyMOOSE said:

Pm Mog he's in the UK or post up in the suspension section asking for him. He may not do the work but will know someone who can help you. These bikes need a little shim shuffle to settle them  imho. 

 

MM 

Thanks, I'll look him up.

3 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Did you service your forks? Usually the stock oil isn't good.... lots change their fork oil after a short while.. I got stiffer springs and didn't revalve..just serviced with new oil and almost stock settings but slowed down the rebound and it's been great .. on my 15 300 rr.. I think mine is time to service again.. it's been awhile as I changed it just a little after buying new.. couple months? I'm heavier so I got stiffer springs but more than usual.. but it turned out great.. plush and more stable at speed..plus I changed the tires as the stock tires suck.. I have a 90/100-21 Motoz up front that I love.. I like the larger tires.. front and back..got an IBEX kenda in back that's working well where I ride. Check as there are threads on this anyway here.. so you can figure settings etc.. There is an article of that had the listing for the Stillwell racing settings that are just a little different than stock.. it's in here somewhere.. might have been on a dirtbike or dirtrider magazine article???  wait here.. but there are more articles.. on beta suspension.. google it and include thumpertalk in the search for more info.. the search in TT sucks..

 

 

Thanks for the info. Still on stock oil. The suspension probably needs servicing, approx 60 hours now. It has always felt like this from the start mind, so maybe a different oil is worth trying. 

55 minutes ago, motocrotts said:

How many hrs on the suspension?  If you're not sure, change the fluid and maybe start with a lower oil level.

About 60 hours. I'll have to do a search on what fluid to go for, there seems to be a lot of choice when it comes to brand, viscosity etc. 

25 minutes ago, Andrew Graham said:

Goes to show you how subjective suspension can be . I had a 15 rr race with resprung and revolved forks I quite liked , got a 17 rr with the open Sachs and felt they were far better stock for my tight  technical riding here on the coast .Will say the front tire makes a huge difference on these bikes , golden tyre fatty with tubliss at 8 lbs  tracks very nice ion most surfaces . Defiantly check your front for binds, lossen-align-retorque 

Still on original tyre and tube on the front, 10 psi. I need a new front tyre soon, its starting to be a bit unpredictable in turns.

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51 minutes ago, Andrew Graham said:

Goes to show you how subjective suspension can be . I had a 15 rr race with resprung and revolved forks I quite liked , got a 17 rr with the open Sachs and felt they were far better stock for my tight  technical riding here on the coast .Will say the front tire makes a huge difference on these bikes , golden tyre fatty with tubliss at 8 lbs  tracks very nice ion most surfaces . Defiantly check your front for binds, lossen-align-retorque 

Totally agree.  Lots of rides on my brother's '15 250rr and never really liked those forks.  They've now been reworked and still not that great IMO. My '17 forks are very nice! Huge improvement over the '15.  I'm impressed with the suspension on my '17 390 so far. And, yes the front tire does make a huge difference. I rode yesterday and lowered pressure to about 10.5 and I really helps the stock front tire performance.

Edited by firffighter

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Change oil, proper springs, soften clickers, and stand up when you ride. It blows my mind how many guys think a revalve is needed on a new bike. 

Work with what you have and adapt to it. 

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5 hours ago, Black-swan said:

Thanks, I'll look him up.

Thanks for the info. Still on stock oil. The suspension probably needs servicing, approx 60 hours now. It has always felt like this from the start mind, so maybe a different oil is worth trying. 

About 60 hours. I'll have to do a search on what fluid to go for, there seems to be a lot of choice when it comes to brand, viscosity etc. 

Still on original tyre and tube on the front, 10 psi. I need a new front tyre soon, its starting to be a bit unpredictable in turns.

For sure you need servicing.. ..and the stock tires suck bad.. When you change that you'll feel a big difference.. I didn't want to change as I thought I wanted to be frugal and use what was on there..but then I couldn't handle it. I had to take them off and with lots of meat on it.. it looked pretty new.. but then when I just put on the regular good tires that I know is better, my Beta felt like a brand new bike.. I'm not sure what is good as far as tires where you ride but check around for what's good.. get a bigger 90/100-21 up front.. it is better all around to me.. smoother ..sticks better..brakes better.. Maybe get a shinko 505 to start or any of a bunch of tires really is better than stock to me..

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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7 hours ago, firffighter said:

Totally agree.  Lots of rides on my brother's '15 250rr and never really liked those forks.  They've now been reworked and still not that great IMO. My '17 forks are very nice! Huge improvement over the '15.  I'm impressed with the suspension on my '17 390 so far. And, yes the front tire does make a huge difference. I rode yesterday and lowered pressure to about 10.5 and I really helps the stock front tire performance.

My front tyre is a bit worn, I'll turn it before I change it out probably. 10 psi seems to work for me. I'd like to get a tubliss front in the future, I'm loving one in the rear wheel. 

4 hours ago, ballisticexchris said:

Change oil, proper springs, soften clickers, and stand up when you ride. It blows my mind how many guys think a revalve is needed on a new bike. 

Work with what you have and adapt to it. 

When you're on relatively smooth tracks and even on some uphills I find sitting better, rougher terrain or trials riding standing up works, I don't think it is that helpful to stand all the time. Anyway, looking at the beta spring rate chart again, I weigh about 173lb in gear, it might well be worth going 1 rate lighter. And changing the oil, thanks.

2 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

For sure you need servicing.. ..and the stock tires suck bad.. When you change that you'll feel a big difference.. I didn't want to change as I thought I wanted to be frugal and use what was on there..but then I couldn't handle it. I had to take them off and with lots of meat on it.. it looked pretty new.. but then when I just put on the regular good tires that I know is better, my Beta felt like a brand new bike.. I'm not sure what is good as far as tires where you ride but check around for what's good.. get a bigger 90/100-21 up front.. it is better all around to me.. smoother ..sticks better..brakes better.. Maybe get a shinko 505 to start or any of a bunch of tires really is better than stock to me..

Thanks. Ive changed the rear to a mitas eo7 I think, hard compound. Running tubliss around 4 psi. It's not bad, not brilliant on rocks, lasting well. Think I'll try something different next time, including a new front tyre, thanks for the suggestions. 

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16 minutes ago, Black-swan said:

My front tyre is a bit worn, I'll turn it before I change it out probably. 10 psi seems to work for me. I'd like to get a tubliss front in the future, I'm loving one in the rear wheel. 

When you're on relatively smooth tracks and even on some uphills I find sitting better, rougher terrain or trials riding standing up works, I don't think it is that helpful to stand all the time. Anyway, looking at the beta spring rate chart again, I weigh about 173lb in gear, it might well be worth going 1 rate lighter. And changing the oil, thanks.

Thanks. Ive changed the rear to a mitas eo7 I think, hard compound. Running tubliss around 4 psi. It's not bad, not brilliant on rocks, lasting well. Think I'll try something different next time, including a new front tyre, thanks for the suggestions. 

Hard compound?.. That doesnt work where I am..and honestly dump your front tire. Its shitty now..turning it around will still suck..and worse. I couldnt stand that tire new...for now drop the pressure a couple of pounds....just to try..but it needs to go. Youll be so much happier.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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1 minute ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Hard compound?.. That doesnt work where I am..and honestly dump your front tire. Its shitty now..turning it around will still suck..and worse. I couldnt stand that tire new.

I bought the tyre online, the tyres they pictured were the green stripe ones, soft compounds, I received a hard one in the post, lol. But I was in a rush to try out the tubliss, it has actually been pretty good. I occasionally commute on the bike or go back lane scratching on tarmac, so it has lasted well. plus it's been unusually dry here. Front tyres arent too expensive, maybe I should splash out when I get paid :D

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Just now, Black-swan said:

I bought the tyre online, the tyres they pictured were the green stripe ones, soft compounds, I received a hard one in the post, lol. But I was in a rush to try out the tubliss, it has actually been pretty good. I occasionally commute on the bike or go back lane scratching on tarmac, so it has lasted well. plus it's been unusually dry here. Front tyres arent too expensive, maybe I should splash out when I get paid :D

Yea it sucks as all this stuff is expensive. I usually buy stuff on sale before I need it to save money..The suspension for ex. I usually buy springs for my weight ahead of time...and for sure tires I constantly look for deals ahead and buy..ebay or whatever...but honestly those tires suck..and even the bigger 90/100 front tire adds to smoother riding aswell as confidence in the front end sticking.

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Caution! Avoid running low pressure with FRONT TuBliss

Due to the smaller width and clearance in front tires, when the pressure is lower the hard plastic corners of the rimlock can rub the inside of the tire carcass and puncture it from the inside, usually a tear type of puncture which may not be repairable trackside with plugs...it happened on last weeks ride and another rider made the comment that he has seen a few front tires running TuBliss with puntures at the rimlock

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Only seen tubliss damage when finishing a hare scramble with a flat . Hundreds of hours on fronts with low pressure , never even seen scuffing inside .  

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On 2017-7-15 at 7:34 PM, Black-swan said:

Hi guys,

Riding my 17 300rr back to back with a 17 350 husky and my partners 16 crf450x the suspension feels harsh in comparison. The husky I tried is on the other end of the spectrum, if anything too soft. Whilst on the RR you can feel every bump on the trail. The front does get a little wallowly when landing jumps and hitting obstacles at speed. The settings are completely standard, standard oil, standard springs. I have tried softening off the clickers on the forks before but find you tend to deflect off everything. I bleed the forks before every ride, weigh about 80kg in gear so the stock springs should be OK.

Just wondering if this harshness is normal? Its quite a hard ride with the stock seat, vibration through the bars and the front and rear suspension transmitting every bump to you. Is there anything to make the suspension more plush without deflecting off everything at speed? 

Its the standard RR with open cartridge Sachs fork, 10mm showing above clamps, 1st line on forks (fork height in clamps) thanks in advance! 

Do you have adjustable preload caps? I note you say you're going to lighter springs later in this post.

Not sure what or who Beta comes sprung for but surely at 80kg you'd be close to the "average person" 75kg many bike mfg spring for (well KTM and yam do IIRC).

Maybe just have it all serviced and have the preload set right in the fork. Can make harshness if its running too much. (The more the spring is compressed the harder a hit it takes to move it). Another possibilty is possibly even you're even sitting low in the stroke at 80kg. This could also cause a harsh feeling bike.

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4 hours ago, BushPig said:

Do you have adjustable preload caps? I note you say you're going to lighter springs later in this post.

Not sure what or who Beta comes sprung for but surely at 80kg you'd be close to the "average person" 75kg many bike mfg spring for (well KTM and yam do IIRC).

Maybe just have it all serviced and have the preload set right in the fork. Can make harshness if its running too much. (The more the spring is compressed the harder a hit it takes to move it). Another possibilty is possibly even you're even sitting low in the stroke at 80kg. This could also cause a harsh feeling bike.

Race sag for the front is 38mm, static 21mm, rear race sag 105mm, 41mm static. So I think I am within spec with the stock springs. I've tried loosening off the front end and tightening everything the correct way for fork alignment. I will see if this has made any difference. The bike could do with oil changes soon though regardless.

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Race sag for the fork seems very low considering your weight.  I'm right at 70mm with softer springs which is the classic advise that I found from research.  Rear sag seem just a tad low.

My experience is this (155 lb middle aged trail rider, not racer):

1) New bike was so harsh I could barely ride it at first.

2) Got correct front and rear springs, changed fork oil, made adjustments.  Then I could ride it but the original harshness was still there at a reduced level.

3) Rode the bike for six months (maybe 40 hours of mixed trail riding).  Suspension never "loosened up". It stayed the same.

4) Finally got fed up/exhausted from rocks deflecting me off the trail that I went for professional revalving/tuning both front and rear.

5) Bike is now super sweet.

In conclusion:  By all means try to work with what you have.  You might find a super sweet set-up.  BUT, don't be afraid to employ a professional suspension tuner to tailor the suspension behavior to your abilities, size, fitness level, conditions, and preferences.  I'm glad I did.  BTW, you can't properly tune the suspension until you have enough experience to form a detailed description of what you want from the tuner.  That takes time and a lot of miles.  It's useless to rush through the process in my opinion.

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I made a lot of suspension changes that were not working for me, so I started fresh.

I started by setting up the Sag correctly, changed the fork oil and set the suspension clickers and rebound to stock as per the manual. Test rode it, and the stock settings were to soft for me.

I then went with the Stillwell Suspension Settings and worked slowly from there as a base, and it is so sweet now. I think I have all mine set at 12 now.

Stillwell Beta Settings:

Fork:

Compression: 14

Rebound: 10-12

Shock:

Low Speed: 12

High Speed: 12

Reobound: 14

SAG: 106-110MM

Hope that helps someone.

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12 hours ago, Andrew Graham said:

Only seen tubliss damage when finishing a hare scramble with a flat . Hundreds of hours on fronts with low pressure , never even seen scuffing inside .  

The issue seems to be tyre specific, some guys with zero problems, others with problems tearing tyres from the inside before actually wearing them out ?

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