17 Ktm 250xcw VS Beta 300rr lap times

[oldman]

I own both of the bikes listed in the title.  While riding a local rough, rooty, clapped out 5.5 mile, close woods, harescrambe trail, mostly 3rd gear running on my Ktm the best lap time I can achieve is just under under 20 min, 19 min 55sec at best.

When I ride the same loop on my Beta my lap times are constantly better and at best 19 min 15 sec.

When riding the Ktm I would swear I'm going faster than on the Beta but the clock says otherwise.

Anybody else here notice deceiving lap time differences between different bikes?

[Odysseus]

The stopwatch never lies.Had a similar experience years ago on a natural terrain grass track.Four Jap MX bikes and a KTM 250 DXC. The KTM felt the slowest but consistently set the fastest times regardless of rider.This is why I dismiss 99% of the web fodder posted up by the Joe Nobody's. In respect to power alone ,Powerfull bikes are great for really fit riders or guys who'd rather boast than ride. Oldman.What do you put the difference down to?

Edited July 20, 2017 by widebear

[Johnny Depp]

Barry Morris had the same result when he switched from a 300rr to a 480rr on his enduro course in his videos.

[hawaiidirtrider]

7 hours ago, oldman said:

I own both of the bikes listed in the title.  While riding a local rough, rooty, clapped out 5.5 mile, close woods, harescrambe trail, mostly 3rd gear running on my Ktm the best lap time I can achieve is just under under 20 min, 19 min 55sec at best.

When I ride the same loop on my Beta my lap times are constantly better and at best 19 min 15 sec.

When riding the Ktm I would swear I'm going faster than on the Beta but the clock says otherwise.

Anybody else here notice deceiving lap time differences between different bikes?

That's interesting.. I've never tried timing myself with different bikes I've owned like that . I have a different kind of "feel" type of comparison with riding different bikes I've owned and figuring which I would be faster or more comfortable on. I think what I think makes me faster on my different Betas is the sort of "rideability" factor which is only said for lack of a better description of how the motor and chassis work for Beta.. smooth and you just feel more comfortable than some other bikes so you are not fighting the bike so much.. I'd think though that your ktm is still a pretty easy bike to ride and ride fast.. maybe it's also simple things like gearing is just a tad better.. or suspension settings are just a bit different also. It's hard to figure as each bike and each rider are different.  What may work just a little better for you may not work for others.. I have to say that I had an 01 cr 250 honda that was modded up real well for me.. I had the bike for 12 years and got it revalved and sprung for me.. I got different offsett triple clamps.. I got the ergos all worked out right after trying a variety of different setups .. even with the gearing.. blah blah blah.. The bike was and is a real good bike and it worked so well for me.. What really impressed me and threw me off was I had gotten my brand new 09 525 Beta and I was just about as fast on it as my cr and almost stock but with a countershaft sprocket change.. I thought it was just my imagination.. and I liked how the bike felt and loved it right off.. My dealer who rides with me instantly noticed that my speed had gone up. He told me "What's up?... you're going way faster". The bike just clicked with me.. Right now I don't have bikes that are in the same class that i can compare speed like you have.. well I guess I could compare my 350rr with my 300rr.. That might be close in a flowing closed loop enduro ride like you describe.. Right now I have a bunch of bikes.. but I'm just more in love with my 300rr than the rest at the moment. It's weird.. for me I'm one of those that just rather have a 2 stroke if I had to have one bike. 4 stroke is great too.. but just loving my 300rr. I rode my 4 stroke for a while and then just needed a brap type fix. I have the 4 stroke need some times.. but the 2 stroke side is a stronger addiction for me. My poor 525 is being neglected and it's a great bike..

[hawaiidirtrider]

8 hours ago, oldman said:

I own both of the bikes listed in the title.  While riding a local rough, rooty, clapped out 5.5 mile, close woods, harescrambe trail, mostly 3rd gear running on my Ktm the best lap time I can achieve is just under under 20 min, 19 min 55sec at best.

When I ride the same loop on my Beta my lap times are constantly better and at best 19 min 15 sec.

When riding the Ktm I would swear I'm going faster than on the Beta but the clock says otherwise.

Anybody else here notice deceiving lap time differences between different bikes?

What year is your Beta? the ktm is a 17... or both 17's?   ... maybe some of it is the gear ratios?  a W and a more even spread for the Beta? idk.. Thanks for posting up though.

Edited July 20, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[Sycamore]

It's a 250 vs 300 thing. 300s are deceivingly fast

[ballisticexchris]

I have a loop in Hemet CA (Hixon Trail) of mixed rocks, ruts, hills , roots etc. For fun I just cruised at a normal trail pace on my KTM 300. It takes me about 11-12 minutes to complete the loop in either direction. I then stiffened up the springs and set the sag on my 498 Beta. I decided to ride at a decent 90% or so race pace. I was freeking amazed! I can do the loop in 8-9 minutes on the Beta. I tried the same thing on my 300 and was saddened that it takes me 9-10 minutes. As much as I like my 300, it just can't find the traction nor the speed of the 498. 

OTOH, I'm sure as the trails get nastier and longer the 300 is much easier to ride just for the fact it's almost 40lbs less than the Beta. I have never timed either one in the desert. I just don't have the balls to hang it wide open anymore. At the expert red bar level big bore 4T's are king a national H&H. At novice and amature level the 250-300 2T's do pretty damn good. 

[hawaiidirtrider]

That 498 is a pretty awesome bike.. I don't see any new bikes that are worth upgrading to . I think your bike is better.. The comparison and timing thing is something that depends on a lot of different factors. It's different for lots of guys but I could see that in a nice flowing trail the 498 would be great. Hell my old 525 RS is good too for that matter.. and nothing taking away from ktm.. Some might go faster on a ktm depending on how they ride.

Edited July 20, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[ballisticexchris]

8 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

That 498 is a pretty awesome bike.. I don't see any new bikes that are worth upgrading to . The comparison and timing thing is something that depends on a lot of different factors. It's different for lots of guys but I could see that in a nice flowing trail the 498 would be great. Hell my old 525 RS is good too for that matter.. and nothing taking away from ktm.. Some might go faster on a ktm depending on how they ride.

The 2T's are fast no doubt about it. OTOH the 498 is a damn rocket. When it's stripped down to the bone it's a really well handling machine. The only time you feel the weight is when picking it up.

Edited July 20, 2017 by ballisticexchris
spelling

[Primal Enduro]

I don't do any racing.  All of my riding is for pure fun and enjoyment.  my trails are slow, rocky and technical and I could really care less which bike would make the section quicker.  I care more about the grin on my face at the end of the section and how tired I am at the end of the day.  Which ever bike makes me smile the most and wears me out the least in the gnarly terrain is the bike I'll ride, regardless of brand or displacement!  

That being said, I'm on my 4th season on the 300rr...which is a record for me as I usually change bikes every year...sometimes less than a year.  Love the 300!  but wouldn't mind swinging a leg over a new ktm 150xcw just for fun!  I don't think that could be my only bike, but seems like it might be really good in my goat trails!

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by WoodsRacerDotCom

[oldman]

8 hours ago, widebear said:

The stopwatch never lies.   Oldman.What do you put the difference down to?

Both bikes are 17 models.  Both have springs and suspension set up to my liking.

The Beta weighs a little more than the Ktm but I am not sure that is a bad thing as it feels more stable and stays on line better than the Ktm when the going gets rocky and rough while trying to maintain speed. 

Power delivery.  The Beta 300 power delivery is smooth and predictable from idle on up with no surprises.  I am able to run the Beta at lower rpm which helps with traction especially when trail is wet. 

[Hans Schmid]

Fastest lap I've every put down in my practice loop was done on my wife's YZ 125. It's stood for 4yrs. I hit everything clean and perfect that lap... The most consistent has been on my YZ250. Unfortunately the course has changed over the years so it's impossible to recreate it exactly but I would believe the 350xcf would be the fastest... 

[hawaiidirtrider]

7 hours ago, oldman said:

Both bikes are 17 models.  Both have springs and suspension set up to my liking.

The Beta weighs a little more than the Ktm but I am not sure that is a bad thing as it feels more stable and stays on line better than the Ktm when the going gets rocky and rough while trying to maintain speed. 

Power delivery.  The Beta 300 power delivery is smooth and predictable from idle on up with no surprises.  I am able to run the Beta at lower rpm which helps with traction especially when trail is wet. 

Nice!! Yea that makes it even more interesting..Its funny as different trends come into play also..Some have gone and put a 300 top end on their 250 in the past for Beta at least....and now there are guys with 300rrs going to 250 top ends...and xtrainers too.. Now xtrainers are going down to 250 for a larger public .. I like my 300 and I like the 250rr too..a little quicker reving but still just a slight difference. Im guessing its the same with the ktm 250 and 300...What is there a little more hit with the ktm?..more lively?? I thought the new ktm is supposed to be less vibration and still on the linear side?? My friends that have 17 250 and 300 ktms seem to ride smooth although one put on a lectron almost immediately  and the other did a lot of tuning and put a 300 top end on his 250 17...I didnt ride them to compare..yet at least.

Edited July 20, 2017 by hawaiidirtrider

[Sycamore]

The 2T's are fast no doubt about it. OTOH the 498 is a damn rocket. When it's stripped down to the bone it's a really well handling machine. The only time you feel the weight is when picking it up.

I hear the "only time I feel the weight is when I pick it up" comment a lot. It just goes to show how different we all view it. I loved my 450 but it felt like tub of lard compared to my 2s. And I mean ALL the time

[RhinofromWA]

54 minutes ago, Sycamore said:

I hear the "only time I feel the weight is when I pick it up" comment a lot. It just goes to show how different we all view it. I loved my 450 but it felt like tub of lard compared to my 2s. And I mean ALL the time

I am with you.  When I am tossing a bike through tight trees a 4T weight/spinning mass/higher center of gravity...whatever shows it ugly head.  My 09 YZ450 was a tank comparably.  It was fast... that isn't being debated.  It was just heavier feeling than any 2T in the same conditions.  Get out where the power can be used... be it the desert or MX track (etc) weight becomes less of a hindrance.  The power along with some extra mass gives it a more planted feel. 

[Johnny Depp]

It's funny how the conversation keeps coming back to how a bike "feels" when this thread is specifically about the stopwatch. For decades I have read tester's review bikes and say how fast it "feels". Do you realize how few times a stopwatch is ever used in testing for magazines and websites? Without it so much is speculation and objective. At least MXA has race results to go by. Good on Barry for timing his runs.

 Bikes that "feel" slow are often the fastest on the clock. They are easier to ride due to the traction nature of power pulses and roll on grunt power, and easier to ride frequently translates into faster. Almost no one seems to recognize this. Congrats to Oldman for the thread and the stopwatch

Edited July 21, 2017 by Johnny Depp

[hawaiidirtrider]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

It's funny how the conversation keeps coming back to how a bike "feels" when this thread is specifically about the stopwatch. For decades I have read tester's review bikes and say how fast it "feels". Do you realize how few times a stopwatch is ever used in testing for magazines and websites? Without it so much is speculation and objective. At least MXA has race results to go by. Good on Barry for timing his runs.

 Bikes that "feel" slow are often the fastest on the clock. They are easier to ride due to the traction nature of power pulses and roll on grunt power, and easier to ride frequently translates into faster. Almost no one seems to recognize this. Congrats to Oldman for the thread and the stopwatch

I'm faster on my 300rr and I like how it feels. The feeling is of being in control and it's not that I'm trying hard or a sense of more speed.. yet it's more relaxed and comfortable... I feel more in control and not on the edge as much.  The conversation can't go only to feel or only to times to me. Maybe it's also the description of what one thinks is "feels faster" might mean. I feel like I'm going faster.. and I am going faster when it's almost like I'm not trying... I'm putting less effort and Im relaxed and moving faster with less effort it seems..  For me it seems like if I'm working too hard my speed isn't as good as it should be.

[Sycamore]

Another observation I had was that I was fast on my 450
Maybe even faster then my 300 but it wore me out over time.

[bikesandcars]

"Slow down to go fast" or other versions of that saying has been around in motorsports for a long time. Doesn't surprise me at all that the smoother feeling but otherwise comparable bike is faster.

 

This is good timing, I thought KFDBC's review would benefit from a stopwatch