Difference between MX and Enduro suspension

[yellow_busa]

My son and I ride mostly single track with our KTM XCW's and they work well in that environment. My suspension was done by Tech Care here in Michigan and set was set up for my weight of 260lbs. My sons bike was just adjusted to his weight of 155lbs. Both bikes handle well for trail and single track. we had some friends take us riding on a MX track last weekend for the first time. It was a lot of fun but we both had problems with our bikes bouncing after the jumps. It was very unnerving to have our bikes bounce when they landed. We stayed away from the doubles and just jumped the table tops. Is this something that can be tuned out so that we can ride both or is it because our bikes really are designed for Enduro?

Edited July 25, 2017 by yellow_busa

[mog]

You need to wind in the compression a lot for Mx

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[MetricMuscle]

2 hours ago, yellow_busa said:

My son and I ride mostly single track with our KTM XCW's and they work well in that environment. My suspension was done by Tech Care here in Michigan and set was set up for my weight of 260lbs. My sons bike was just adjusted to his weight of 155lbs. Both bikes handle well for trail and single track. we had some friends take us riding on a MX track last weekend for the first time. It was a lot of fun but we both had problems with our bikes bouncing after the jumps. It was very unnerving to have our bikes bounce when they landed. We stayed away from the doubles and just jumped the table tops. Is this something that can be tuned out so that we can ride both or is it because our bikes really are designed for Enduro?

Bouncing sounds like rebound to me, try turning the rebound clickers in like 4 clicks each and see if it bounces less.

How do the bikes feel when you land?  Do they feel like they are using up all of the travel and hitting bottom?

[yellow_busa]

Just now, MetricMuscle said:

Bouncing sounds like rebound to me, try turning the rebound clickers in like 4 clicks each and see if it bounces less.

How do the bikes feel when you land?  Do they feel like they are using up all of the travel and hitting bottom?

Mine bottomed out a couple of times when I first got there basically dropping off the face of a double with very little momentum. On the table tops with more speed it did not bottom but did bounce around on the landings. I was thinking a couple of clicks more compression and a little more rebound to slow the bounce. We had a lot of fun but I did get tossed on one of the landing because of the bike bouncing sideways. I guess we will only go to the track for fun a couple of times a year. I do think it will make us more rounded riders skill wise with the track experience.

[GoneDirtBikeN]

9 minutes ago, yellow_busa said:

Mine bottomed out a couple of times when I first got there basically dropping off the face of a double with very little momentum. On the table tops with more speed it did not bottom but did bounce around on the landings. I was thinking a couple of clicks more compression and a little more rebound to slow the bounce. We had a lot of fun but I did get tossed on one of the landing because of the bike bouncing sideways. I guess we will only go to the track for fun a couple of times a year. I do think it will make us more rounded riders skill wise with the track experience.

Yea, I know that maneuver. It basically launches you vertical to drop like a sack of potatoes into the ravine between. This is not the impact you plan on taking while riding so you should not tune for that. It's ok to play with that a couple of times but really best to avoid in general. If it's a double with a deep ravine, roll it or jump it. Given what you are saying about how your suspension is acting for you, stick to table tops, small step ups, etc. - aka safe stuff until you get the suspension settings working for MX.

First adjust compression to take the largest impacts you plan on taking (not accounting for totally abnormal situations). You should not plan for dropping like a sack of potatoes but you might plan on being a gamely person sometimes going for it and not always making it 100% (occasionally casing it). Casing and hitting the top-ish of the jump is a much different situation. IMO, this you can ask for a little help from the suspension but don't expect miracles (if you find a miracle or magic pixie dust please let me know about it. I can use some myself).

While you are adjusting compression for the impacts pay attention to if you feel the pogo effect. If you feel the pogo effect make rebound slower/harder. You want rebound as fast as possible (when going through rough track sections you need that for the suspension to follow) but you don't want it pitching you uncontrolled on jump landing.

During this process you are also looking to balance out the bike. You should be launching into the air with back end and front end balanced. When you say "bike bouncing sideways" I'm thinking either front or back was pogo'ing more than the other. It is ok for the bike to rebound after a large landing. Just not uncontrolled or unbalance. My other thought is "squeeze with your knees; if the bike is getting sideways in the air, this will help with that.

You also want to consider your body position. The best I heard this phrase is "you want to go with the bike". When you are accelerating going into a jump you want to be forward, head over the bars. This will help not having the back end pitch forward. Back end being pitched high is more often than not one of two things 1) body position too far back, 2) compression in rear too stiff. 

[yellow_busa]

23 minutes ago, GoneDirtBikeN said:

Yea, I know that maneuver. It basically launches you vertical to drop like a sack of potatoes into the ravine between. This is not the impact you plan on taking while riding so you should not tune for that. It's ok to play with that a couple of times but really best to avoid in general. If it's a double with a deep ravine, roll it or jump it. Given what you are saying about how your suspension is acting for you, stick to table tops, small step ups, etc. - aka safe stuff until you get the suspension settings working for MX.

First adjust compression to take the largest impacts you plan on taking (not accounting for totally abnormal situations). You should not plan for dropping like a sack of potatoes but you might plan on being a gamely person sometimes going for it and not always making it 100% (occasionally casing it). Casing and hitting the top-ish of the jump is a much different situation. IMO, this you can ask for a little help from the suspension but don't expect miracles (if you find a miracle or magic pixie dust please let me know about it. I can use some myself).

While you are adjusting compression for the impacts pay attention to if you feel the pogo effect. If you feel the pogo effect make rebound slower/harder. You want rebound as fast as possible (when going through rough track sections you need that for the suspension to follow) but you don't want it pitching you uncontrolled on jump landing.

During this process you are also looking to balance out the bike. You should be launching into the air with back end and front end balanced. When you say "bike bouncing sideways" I'm thinking either front or back was pogo'ing more than the other. It is ok for the bike to rebound after a large landing. Just not uncontrolled or unbalance. My other thought is "squeeze with your knees; if the bike is getting sideways in the air, this will help with that.

You also want to consider your body position. The best I heard this phrase is "you want to go with the bike". When you are accelerating going into a jump you want to be forward, head over the bars. This will help not having the back end pitch forward. Back end being pitched high is more often than not one of two things 1) body position too far back, 2) compression in rear too stiff. 

Dropping a sack of potatoes describes it perfectly. I started going around the doubles after a couple of those accidental drops. For the other jumps the bike left the ground pretty much level and straight. It stayed that way in the air but it did bounce on landings and once it kicked sideways on the bounce which then high sided me right in front of the stands. Took all my air out and most of my pride but no real injuries.  I will slow the rebound down the next time we go to the track for both of our bikes and see how that feels. Will say that once I could breathe again I couldn't wait to get back out on the track and try it again. 

[GoneDirtBikeN]

40 minutes ago, yellow_busa said:

Dropping a sack of potatoes describes it perfectly. I started going around the doubles after a couple of those accidental drops. For the other jumps the bike left the ground pretty much level and straight. It stayed that way in the air but it did bounce on landings and once it kicked sideways on the bounce which then high sided me right in front of the stands. Took all my air out and most of my pride but no real injuries.  I will slow the rebound down the next time we go to the track for both of our bikes and see how that feels. Will say that once I could breathe again I couldn't wait to get back out on the track and try it again. 

Honestly I'd start with compression first and get that in the ball park. It could be that you are bottoming out, hitting the rubber bumper hard and that is causing the rebound; Adjusting the rebound will not fix that.

Like Mog said, going from enduro to mx settings, chances are your compression is too soft.

If you can, pick out a table that you can safely circle back around to. Stuff a screw driver into your boot before you leave the pits. The recess where the boot overlaps makes for a nice comfortable spot.

Hit that table with control not trying to clear it if it is big. Make sure to use good technique - lead the bike through leaving the jump. Absorb as much of the launch as you can. In fact I like to land on the top of big tables. I'm not a "go big or go home" rider. So I have my suspension adjusted to accommodate for that in the mix. Pull of track, wind in compression a click or two, circle back around to that table top. Rinse and repeat. If not safe to circle around to one jump, do a lap.

Get compression somewhere in the ballpark and then start working on rebound is how I would approach it. It's also cyclic to fine tune. Then you want to adjust for the rest of the track. Again it cyclic. Your trying to find the best compromise with a priority on not eating it - LoL.

[91kdx25088]

the problem you are describing is directly related to rebound. turn the rebound in a few clicks at a time. you want to slow the rebound down. if other things get worse start going back the other way. rebound dampening effects both compression and rebound so start with rebound.

[mlatour]

It's common practice to set the rebound first rather than the compression,

for the reason 91kdx25088 mentions above, the oil flows both ways thru the bleed circuit so it also affects compression.

 

If the compression is dialed-in first, damping will be affected if you later change the rebound settings.

 

I recently rode my very softly valved CRF250X on a vet level MX track,

at first it bottomed quite hard and also kicked the rear end up off jumps.

By only slowing down the rebound by 5 clicks at both ends most of the bottoming was eliminated.

[KtmNoob69]

22 hours ago, yellow_busa said:

My son and I ride mostly single track with our KTM XCW's and they work well in that environment. My suspension was done by Tech Care here in Michigan and set was set up for my weight of 260lbs. My sons bike was just adjusted to his weight of 155lbs. Both bikes handle well for trail and single track. we had some friends take us riding on a MX track last weekend for the first time. It was a lot of fun but we both had problems with our bikes bouncing after the jumps. It was very unnerving to have our bikes bounce when they landed. We stayed away from the doubles and just jumped the table tops. Is this something that can be tuned out so that we can ride both or is it because our bikes really are designed for Enduro?

Usually you want faster rebound for the track. When you say "bouncing" are you also referring to "wallowing" or "oscillation" after the landing, if so you want faster rebound, not slower. If the bike feels plush you want faster, if its harsh and stiff feeling, you want slower- but I don't think thats the case. 

Quick Fix: Stiffer compression, and faster rebound. Note** As you stiffen compression it will naturally "speed" up the rebound feel, as it is compressing less, and therefore able to rebound quicker (less distance to rebound, less oscillation). 

A more permanent or noticeable fix: Add fork oil. Try adding say 15-20cc's of oil per fork leg. Track requires more fork oil. This stiffens the mid stroke, and speeds up the mid stroke rebound due to stiffer air spring force. This mostly prevents bottoming, but would also have a similar "stiffer comp and faster rebound effect" on the big hits, without affecting the small and low speed damping as much. 

 

 

[GoneDirtBikeN]

And now that I re-read the OP's second post that it said "did not bottom on the table with more speed" and if it is still pogo'ing there, you guys are right about looking at rebound first.

[EnglertRacing]

for really slow plonking, fast rebound gives a plush feel

especially through football sized rocks.

but once you get going faster, fast rebound feels out of control, messes with cornering, stability, and landings.

try living with more rebound.

on the trail too. you might find yourself riding faster

[MetricMuscle]

4 hours ago, EnglertRacing said:

for really slow plonking, fast rebound gives a plush feel

especially through football sized rocks.

but once you get going faster, fast rebound feels out of control, messes with cornering, stability, and landings.

try living with more rebound.

on the trail too. you might find yourself riding faster

By "MORE" rebound do you mean more damping, slower rebound?

[EnglertRacing]

I mean More dampening = slower 

[Budlite]

Soft enduro type suspension and mx don't mix well and can be dangerous to both you and other riders. My recommendation is not to do it in the first place.

 

[mlatour]

I have re-valved and re-sprung my trail ridden CRF250X for soft compression and fast rebound, it handles roots & rocks very well.

The other day I took it to a motocross track for the 1st time as I was following a kid around all day and not planning to ride my usual pace (a YZ125 is my usual MX bike).

 

Once the kid got the hang of it and could ride without constant supervision (he's got one season of trail riding but had never been to a track)

I decided to see how much my overweight CRF could be reasonably pushed on the vet track.   (tabletops only)

Bike is loaded with skidplate, hand, brush, radiator guards, even a handlebar mounted .6 gallon aux. fuel tank.

 

First lap it was evident the shock's rebound was too fast, slowed by 5 clicks it became very rideable,

forks on the other hand bottomed hard on any 'flat' landing that wasn't on the downslope of tabletops.

 

Jumps timed right and not pushed beyond the bike's capabilities, it actually was quite fun having more front end traction (weight)

and corner exit traction (4-stroke tractability) versus my YZ125.  

Would I buy a 4T motocross rather than the 125, probably not but if the YZ blew up mid season

I'm not sure I'd be in a rush to fix it, with minor suspension tweaking the enduro bike did quite well for recreational MX'ing.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by mlatour

[EmpireofDerp]

Honestly I'd start with compression first and get that in the ball park. It could be that you are bottoming out, hitting the rubber bumper hard and that is causing the rebound; Adjusting the rebound will not fix that.
Like Mog said, going from enduro to mx settings, chances are your compression is too soft.
If you can, pick out a table that you can safely circle back around to. Stuff a screw driver into your boot before you leave the pits. The recess where the boot overlaps makes for a nice comfortable spot.
Hit that table with control not trying to clear it if it is big. Make sure to use good technique - lead the bike through leaving the jump. Absorb as much of the launch as you can. In fact I like to land on the top of big tables. I'm not a "go big or go home" rider. So I have my suspension adjusted to accommodate for that in the mix. Pull of track, wind in compression a click or two, circle back around to that table top. Rinse and repeat. If not safe to circle around to one jump, do a lap.
Get compression somewhere in the ballpark and then start working on rebound is how I would approach it. It's also cyclic to fine tune. Then you want to adjust for the rest of the track. Again it cyclic. Your trying to find the best compromise with a priority on not eating it - LoL.

Damn, i needed this thread before Wednesday. First time at a track, pushed hard and started clearing the big table because getting closer and closer to the down ramp bike was starting to pogo hard lol. I thought it needed compression but didn't want to mess with it too much. I have it valved for GP races so it's a bit stiff on the trails if you're going too slow and a bit soft on the MX track. Its great for high speed ripping with some smaller jumps.

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[GoneDirtBikeN]

At the track last night. Had my suspension revalved less than two weeks ago on the 450. I desperately needed some things changed like it blowing through the mid stroke on the forks, was too much towards the low end on the rebound setting... The guy did a good job. I could feel improvement cornering, jumping and landing. But now I'm back to getting it dial-in for me. I seem to take forever to get to go from OK -> Good -> Just Perfect settings.

Previous days I was trying to see how plush I could make the bike feel going over breaking and acceleration bumps. I was mainly winding out the compression on the forks but went a couple clicks out on rebound as well figuring more compression that rebound would need to be a faster return. I was thinking that would make it "follow" better. Seemed to be better but I still just had that wallowing feeling going through rollers and rough track sections.

So yesterday, I went back to a basic baseline that I found to be "OK". But then I slowed down rebound on the shock. Landing jumps with the bike rebounding ever so controlled was really nice. Better yet got rid of some of that wallowing up-n-down feeling going over the rough sections. The rollers/whoops are a bit big and spread out for my level of speed/riding-abilities so I still don't feel good in that section.

I'm still puzzled as what I can change to fix the "wallowing up-n-down"???????

What's really annoying is that my 250 suspension is pretty much just perfect. It follows nicely on rough sections of the track. And for the novice/beginner I am, I can actually carry pretty decent speed through the whoops skimming them.

I got almost 50 hours on the 450 currently. I figure about another 30-40 hours of testing and suspension adjustments and I'll get to "Just Perfect" on the 450, then I'll have about 10-20 hours of riding it that way before I get a new bike  and have to start all over again. LoL

 

[EnglertRacing]

You need more lsc and rebound to stop the wallowing.

If it's too harsh then you need different stacks

[GoneDirtBikeN]

16 hours ago, EnglertRacing said:

You need more lsc and rebound to stop the wallowing.

If it's too harsh then you need different stacks

Last Thursday I decided to do a "reset" on dialing in the bike. Basically back to the default settings of the person who did the revalve. Reading through this thread reminded me that with a revalve I was basically starting from scratch so I went for adjusting rebound first. Made the rebound a couple clicks stiffer and instantly the bike took landings much, much, much more controlled. I did this a couple more cycles and test laps, all-n-all moving stiffening rebound on shock by 4 clicks. At that point I decided best to change the front a bit for good balance and reduced rebound there only one click which seemed to ride well but needed to soften compression on the fork at that point because it then wanted to climb to the outside of the rut just past the apex (I should work on adjusting the forks a bit more).

Wallowing is gone going over acceleration and braking bumps. Not sure if I can get it any better going through the rollers/whoops - I need to find a more novice oriented section given my skill level. I want to find a section that is more whoops than rollers. The section I've been working on the rollers/whoops , they are more rollers - spaced out farther and bigger. 

Current settings are working out pretty good for me. I'm able to get more aggressive on features that I've been shying away from lately. With the wallowing gone I'm able to get better acceleration between features to make clearing jumps much easier.

I was at a different track on Sat/Sun. One that is more tight and technical. There is this one step-up that is rather big. It has two landing zones (basically a double/triple). I only do the double part of it. They really made the face extremely steep recently. So the first time I went for the double part I over shot it a bit. Went really vertical. Dropping out of the air my thought was "my ankles are going to go through my ears". I landed and was pretty freaking happy that the bike sucked it all up and I continued riding like nothing out of the normal happened.